Theological Implications of Right to Lifers

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Sufficient food (nutrients), water, oxygen.

Would embryos grow in Limbo? If they're given sufficient nutrients, then would they continue to develop into infants? Would they by kept in some sort of container in Limbo (like a jar full of amniotic fluid)?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Are we talking about this group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism

??

Seems almost deutero-Christian to me...

Well, there are a number of Hasidic groups, but , yes, the stream comes down through the Baal Shem Tov in the 18th century. Hasidim in general seem to have become more orthodox over the years. I would line up with non-orthodox, neo-Hasidism (I think they mentioned that in the article) without the Rebbe/guru stuff.

Was Hasidism influenced by Christianity? Probably, just as Christians were influenced by kabbalah. The Hasidim I think tend to be more messianic than some other Jews—although I’m not sure that was the case early on, since the BeSHT followed on the false messianism of Shabbetai Zvi and Jacob Frank. (It has become a point of recent controversy for the Lubavitcher Hasidim, some of whom apparently believe that the last Rebbe, the late Menachem Mendel Schneerson, was the messiah.))

In one sense, they are a Jewish bhakti movement (and are generally monists). The name Hasidism comes from chesed, normally translated as compassion or lovingkindness or “steadfast love”—but one Hasid said that these were not adequate, and that it should be translated as passionate bliss-fire.

Souls on Fire by Elie Wiesel is a wonderfully written introduction to Hasidism.

Originally posted by bbarr
You think that single-celled organisms can have conscious states?

Not "conscious" as we sentient beings would understand it. But "conscious" in its own mode, yes.

Originally posted by bbarr
Would embryos grow in Limbo? If they're given sufficient nutrients, then would they continue to develop into infants? Would they by kept in some sort of container in Limbo (like a jar full of amniotic fluid)?

I think I've answered this in an earlier post to no1.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Not "conscious" as we sentient beings would understand it. But "conscious" in its own mode, yes.

Do you think plants are "conscious" in their own mode? What about rocks?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I think I've answered this in an earlier post to no1.

No, you didn't. You said they don't do anything, but growth isn't something that embryos do, it is something that happens to them (just like experiencing comfort is something that happens to empbryos, according to you).

Originally posted by bbarr
Do you think plants are "conscious" in their own mode? What about rocks?

Plants - of course. They show an active reaction to external stimuli (light, nutrients, music!).

Rocks - no.

Originally posted by bbarr
No, you didn't. You said they don't do anything, but growth isn't something that embryos do, it is something that happens to them (just like experiencing comfort is something that happens to empbryos, according to you).

I suspect that was not the sense in which no1 asked me what embryos "do" - nor the sense in which I replied.

One could argue that an embryo is, in fact, "doing" something - i.e. "enjoying" its state of natural happiness.

Do I think they grow? No, I don't.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Plants - of course. They show an active reaction to external stimuli (light, nutrients, music!).

Rocks - no.

Ohhhh. So, according to your use of the term 'conscious', thermometers of conscious of temperature change.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I suspect that was not the sense in which no1 asked me what embryos "do" - nor the sense in which I replied.

One could argue that an embryo is, in fact, "doing" something - i.e. "enjoying" its state of natural happiness.

Do I think they grow? No, I don't.

That's interesting. Is there any aspect of Catholic doctrine that would weigh against the supposition that embryos grow into persons during their tenure in Limbo?

Originally posted by bbarr
That's interesting. Is there any aspect of Catholic doctrine that would weigh against the supposition that embryos grow into persons during their tenure in Limbo?

Not really.

Originally posted by bbarr
Ohhhh. So, according to your use of the term 'conscious', thermometers of conscious of temperature change.

No more than the rock.

The responses of a plant, or a single-cell organism, are self-directed and teleological in nature (usually its own survival or well-being). The responses of a rock, or a thermometer, are not.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Not really.

Is there any aspect of Catholic doctrine that would weigh against the supposition that when Christ returns, embryos will by physically resurrected (like the rest of us), but with an adult human body?

Originally posted by bbarr
Is there any aspect of Catholic doctrine that would weigh against the supposition that when Christ returns, embryos will by physically resurrected (like the rest of us), but with an adult human body?

Again, not that I can see.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
No more than the rock.

The responses of a plant, or a single-cell organism, are self-directed and teleological in nature (usually its own survival or well-being). The responses of a rock, or a thermometer, are not.

The responses of a plant are self-directed only in that causal forces acting upon the plant result in responses that themselves depend upon the internal structure of the plant. This is the same with the thermometer.