THE WORD OF GOD

Originally posted by Darfius
Who else is determining it but him? It is incorrect to say God, since we've established that God knows

It's irrelvant who determines.

Something being determined is a prerequisite for knowledge of that something. That is, if it is true that God has knowledge, that of which he has knowledge has already been determined. It is logically impossible to know that which has not been determined; only determined things can be known.

Originally posted by Starrman
Because, if no matter what I choose to do, god knew that I was going to do it and nothing could have avoided it, then I have no decision to make. I could kill myself rather than take this glass of water, or smoke a cigar instead of jumping on one leg, and no matter how wierd or how much I thought I had the free will in the choice, god would already know which one I was going to choose. How can you say this is free will if it is also predetermined?

I think the problem is that you are emphasizing God's foreknowledge far too much. To say that you have no free will, you must display HOW God's foreknowledge of events CAUSES those events to occur. Because the ONLY other option to God not causing the events is you causing the events.

For God, time is not linear. When you understand this, you will understand why there is no contradiction between divine foreknowledge and free will. Although we have a future, and do not know what we will do, God is not restricted by our dimension of time, and thus views our past, present, and future simultaneously (though He knows how we perceive the three, respectively). Does His viewing what you do cause you to do it? Of course not, and to say so is absurd. He simply knows what you will do just as everyone else knows what you did do and do.

Originally posted by Darfius
He simply knows what you will do just as everyone else knows what you did do and do.

Exactly. Meditate on this claim.

Can you change what you did in the past?

If God knows your future just as you know your past, then you cannot change the course that lies ahead of you anymore than you can change the course you have taken.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
It's irrelvant who determines.

Something being determined is a prerequisite for knowledge of that something. That is, if it is true that God has knowledge, that of which he has knowledge has already been determined. It is logically impossible to know that which has not been determined; only determined things can be known.

It's extremely relevant who determines it. If you are responsible for determining something, then you have free will. His knowledge of what you determine does not make Him the cause and thus has no effect on free will.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Exactly. Meditate on this claim.

Can you change what you did in the past?

If God knows your future just as you know your past, then you cannot change the course that lies ahead of you anymore than you can change the course you have taken.

You have the potential to do anything within your capablities. No one is forcing you to actualize any potential. Simply because God knows what you will eventually actualize does not mean you are forced to actualize any one thing.

Originally posted by Darfius
It's extremely relevant who determines it. If you are responsible for determining something, then you have free will. His knowledge of what you determine does not make Him the cause and thus has no effect on free will.

Cause is completely irrelevant to this discussion, once you assert that God has omniscience. Omniscience entails complete determinisim, and the determining mechanism is irrelevant to the analysis that follows about God's omniscience. Given that God has knowledge about something, that something has been determined. If that something is a choice that you perceive to make, you are not doing the determining; the determining has already been done, as evidenced by God's knowledge of it.

Originally posted by Darfius
You have the potential to do anything within your capablities. No one is forcing you to actualize any potential. Simply because God knows what you will eventually actualize does not mean you are forced to actualize any one thing.

You are logically precluded from actualizing anything that runs contrary to God's knowledge, because all that is known has been determined.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Cause is completely irrelevant to this discussion, once you assert that God has omniscience. Omniscience entails complete determinisim, and the determining mechanism is irrelevant to the analysis that follows about God's omniscience. Given that God has knowledge about something, that something has been determined. If that something is a choice th ...[text shortened]... the determining; the determining has already been done, as evidenced by God's knowledge of it.

You are putting God within time to make your point. Within time, nothing has been determined. There are still many potentials within your future that need you to actualize them. But for God, who is transcendant of time, it is determined because YOU have determined it, and He is capable of viewing what you determined.

As an analogy, let's say that you are watching TV with your buds. Suddenly, time freezes, as do your friends. You discover that you have the ability to "fast forward" the game you are watching and see the result. Hopeful that time will begin soon, you rewind the game back to where it was when time froze, planning to surprise your friends with the foreknowledge you now possess. Time unfreezes, and the game continues as you knew it would. For everyone else in the world, including the players within the game, they have free will and are making the same choice they'd make in any situation. Your foreknowledge of the result did not cause the result.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
You are logically precluded from actualizing anything that runs contrary to God's knowledge, because all that is known has been determined.

You are not logically precluded from actualizing anything, since God's knowledge does not force your hand. In fact, His knowledge is contingent upon what you do actualize. What you are not understanding is that although He may not find out until tomorrow within "our" time what you will do, He has really known from eternity past, since He is constantly in a state of *now*.

Originally posted by Darfius
You are putting God within time to make your point.

What does it mean to be within time?

God has knowledge of what time it is, doesn't he?

My analysis that finds that beings with free will cannot exist in a universe that is the object of some entity's omniscience. The only time component of this analysis is that within the universe, time flows. That is, beings experience decisions at one point in time and consequences at a later point in time. The omniscient being is not constrained by time in any manner in my analysis.

What aspect of my analysis do you percieve to be putting God within time?

Originally posted by Darfius
In fact, His knowledge is contingent upon what you do actualize.

Then it's not knowledge.

Originally posted by Darfius
You are not logically precluded from actualizing anything, since God's knowledge does not force your hand. In fact, His knowledge is contingent upon what you do actualize. What you are not understanding is that although He may not find out until tomorrow within "our" time what you will do, He has really known from eternity past, since He is constantly in a state of *now*.

Is there a confusion here (this is addressed to both of you) between "will" and "free will?" I confess, if an omniscient being knows that I am going to commit act X, then even though act X results from my decisions ("will" ), there is really no way I could not have done X. (Presumably, an omniscient being also knows the chain of causal events--from my birth, say--that will lead up to the decision "X." ) For example, right now, typing these words, I think I have made a free decision (for which I am therefore responsible) to type these words. But, if an omniscient being already knows with certainty that I must type these words--then I must type them, no?

EDIT: Dr. S., didn't you and bbarr have a thorough discussion on this some months past? I wish I could remember it...

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
What does it mean to be within time?

God has knowledge of what time it is, doesn't he?

My analysis that finds that beings with free will cannot exist in a universe that is the object of some entity's omniscience. The only time component of this analysis is that within the universe, time flows. That is, beings experience decisions at one po ...[text shortened]... ner in my analysis.

What aspect of my analysis do you percieve to be putting God within time?

I mean that you have Him as bounded by time.

God has knowledge of what time each individual perceives it to be within what we understand time to be. He does not think in terms of time.

When you say that choices are never our own since God knows them "before" we make them. Before is a term that can only be used within time. God knows them now. Your future is going on right now, to Him. As is your past. He has caused neither, but can observe both.

Originally posted by vistesd
Is there a confusion here (this is addressed to both of you) between "will" and "free will?" I confess, if an omniscient being knows that I am going to commit act X, then even though act X results from my decisions ("will" ), there is really no way I could not have done X. (Presumably, an omniscient being also knows the chain of causal ...[text shortened]... ou and bbarr have a thorough discussion on this some months past? I wish I could remember it...

Why do you say "must" rather than will? You chose the word must to insinuate that you were forced, when you really weren't.

In this debate, the skeptic constantly attempts to place focus on God's foreknowledge, rather than personal responsibility. No one is forcing you to do what you will do. His knowledge is not an entity that restricts your options or forces your hand. It is a result of what you will do that He can access now because He is not restricted by time.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Then it's not knowledge.

*shrug* According to you.

www.dictionary.com gives this definition for "knowledge":

Awareness gained through experience or study.

God has studied what you will do right now (from His viewpoint).