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10 Jun 14
Originally posted by sonship"So though it misaimed, contorted, warped, and convoluted, the untwisted longing in man is to be like the most NORMAL human being. That is Jesus."
I'll go further. Man longs to be like [b]Jesus.
That is because Jesus is normality.
He doesn't just long for a SOMETHING that he does not know what it is.
I think he will only have complete fulfillment in being like Jesus Christ.
That is Jesus Christ is what God MEANT by "Human Being."
Of course the good news is that in ...[text shortened]... nvoluted, the untwisted longing in man is to be like the most NORMAL human being. That is Jesus.[/b]
and you believe the effects of this 'longing' are displayed in depression like symptoms. correct?
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Originally posted by twhitehead
So you are backing off from actually finding any wise words, and are now instead making the claim that his words were wise because the Bible says so.
But lets not forget the original claim: that the words would be recognised as wise even if the story of Jesus was wholly fictional.
So was this writer of the fictional Jesus story wise because he was ingen ...[text shortened]... g this trick? Have no other writers had the audacity to call their work of fiction 'wise words'?
So you are backing off from actually finding any wise words,
No, I was layiing preliminary ground work, just as I said.
I said "first" I would emphasize that Christ's whole Being is Wisdom.
Everything Jesus spoke was saturated with wisdom.
Even while He was sleeping, that too was wisdom.
When John says "And the Word became flesh" the philosophical Greeks understood him to mean that Wisdom or Knowledge, the Logos itself became a man.
and are now instead making the claim that his words were wise because the Bible says so.
But lets not forget the original claim: that the words would be recognised as wise even if the story of Jesus was wholly fictional.
This is no big deal to me. Let's take the very first words of Jesus spoken in the Gospel of Matthew.
"From that time Jesus began to proclaim and to say, Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." (Matt. 4:17)
Let alone everything said afterwards. Even His first words were wise.
That is unless you do not want to repent because you think you are fine.
That is unless you do not believe there is an administration from God or from the heavens.
That is if you do not recognize that for a Person like Jesus to be walking among us is indicative that God is intervening in the affairs of the earth. The government of God has "drawn near" as evidenced by the arrival of a Person like Jesus Christ.
If you can ascertain that above to probably be true, there should be no problem in recognizing the wisdom in His words - "Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near."
So was this writer of the fictional Jesus story wise because he was ingenious enough to put in his story the claim that his words were wise? And also, is he unique in using this trick? Have no other writers had the audacity to call their work of fiction 'wise words'?
This is rather convoluted. And I do not want to flip back over posts to examine yesterday's posts.
Let it suffice to say that we Christians believe that EYEWITNESSES saw Jesus and wrote of Him. And this is also speaking to something else I recall you writing.
"For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we became EYEWITNESSES of that One's majesty ..."
Peter writes that the apostles John, James, and himself, Peter did not follow "cleverly devised myths" about their experience on the Mount of Transfiguration. They were eyewitnesses.
Luke carefully did journalistic research from eyewitnesses also about Jesus.
"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to draw up a narrative concerning the matters which have been fully accomplished among us, even as those who from the beginning became EYEWITNESSES and minsters of the word have delivered them to us,
It seemed good to me also, having carefully investigated all things from the first, to write them out for you in an orderly fashion, most excellent Theophilus, So that you may fully know the certainty of the things concerning which you were instructed." (Luke 1:1-4)
Luke, a traveling companion with the Apostle Paul, carefully investigated eyewitnesses. He investigated all things. This surely means that he confirmed reports and did not just write down something because it was said if it could not be confirmed.
So we have confidence about the wise words of Jesus Christ.
But anyway - "Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near" are the first words recorded from the mouth of Jesus in the first of the four gospels. They were wise words.
And I might add that they were not original words. Jesus was essentially repeating the wise words said BEFORE Him by John the Baptist. They were still wise words.
"Now in those days John the Baptist appeared, preaching in the wilderness of Judea and saying, Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." (Matt. 3:1,2)
This demonstrates that "wise words" from Jesus need not necessarily be words that no one else had ever spoken. They were, nonetheless, wise.
And of course there were latter plenty of wise words which we could not find the equivalent to in anyone else who ever lived. That's what makes Jesus Jesus.
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Originally posted by stellspalfie
and you believe the effects of this 'longing' are displayed in depression like symptoms. correct?
I think I have made myself pretty clear. I don't feel to have to repeat it.
If you have something better than the Son of God, you go ahead and pursue that. Some of us find Christ matchless in preciousness and without equal. Jesus is peace with God within - reconciliation to God within.
If you know that you possess something better than eternal life in the Son of God, why you go ahead and pursue that.
I say everyone has a longing for a PERSON. I did not say everyone is coerced into having to receive Him.
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10 Jun 14
Originally posted by sonshipI think I have made myself pretty clear. I don't feel to have to repeatand you believe the effects of this 'longing' are displayed in depression like symptoms. correct?
I think I have made myself pretty clear. I don't feel to have to repeat it.
If you have something better than the Son of God, you go ahead and pursue that. Some of us find Christ matchless in preciousness and without equal. Jesus is pe ...[text shortened]... eryone has a longing for a PERSON. I did not say everyone is coerced into having to receive Him.
i think you did make it clear, i was just giving you a chance to correct it...so, it is fair to say then that you believe all of the non-christians on the planet display symptoms of depression? correct?
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10 Jun 14
Originally posted by stellspalfieI never used the word "display".
[b]I think I have made myself pretty clear. I don't feel to have to repeat
i think you did make it clear, i was just giving you a chance to correct it...so, it is fair to say then that you believe all of the non-christians on the planet display symptoms of depression? correct?[/b]
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I argued that the very first thing recorded as being said by Jesus in the first gospel was wise.
"Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near."
Now I would add the second thing said in the first Gospel, Matthew.
Ooops, Wait a minute, I seemed to have made a mistake. Shame on you guys. You see if ya'll read the Bible carefully for yourselves you could have flagged me on this.
Matthew 3 actually contains the first spoken words by Jesus not Matthew 4.
Here is the first utterances of Jesus when He requests in surprise that John the Baptist baptize Him, the Son of God, along with everyone else!
"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John to be baptized by him [John the Baptist]. But John tried to prevent Him, saying, It is I who have need of being baptized by You, and You come to Me?
But Jesus ANSWERED ... and SAID to him, Permit it for now, for it is fitting for us in this way to fufill all righteousness. Then he permitted Him." (Matt. 3:13-15)
The wisdom in this is astounding.
But it is not perceived immediately.
I think one has to have some spiritual experience before one can grasp the wisdom of this speaking of Jesus.
Should I share it with you skeptics ?
Nay ?
Brothers and sisters in Christ, would you like to know the wisdom that is embodied in these first words of Jesus -
"Permit it for now, for it is fitting for us in this way to fulfill all righteousness."
I admit that I do wish I had an eager audience - self serving as I am.
Maybe I'll share it latter.
Anyway, I was mistaken. This is spoken by Jesus before Matt. 4:17.
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10 Jun 14
[i]Originally posted by sonship[/ i]Have you ever had real fun and still felt empty inside?
I never used the word "display".
Have you ever gone out under a moonlite night of beauty and asked "Why is this not enough to make me happy?"
Have you ever been in the midst of a party where lots of enjoyment is being loudly had, yet within you still feel like something is missing in you?
are these not examples of a person displaying characteristics of depression?.....you seemed to agree that they were earlier.
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Originally posted by stellspalfieThey may not be "displayed". They are usually known only to the person himself or herself. Very, very personal.
[b]Have you ever had real fun and still felt empty inside?
Have you ever gone out under a moonlite night of beauty and asked "Why is this not enough to make me happy?"
Have you ever been in the midst of a party where lots of enjoyment is being loudly had, yet within you still feel like something is missing in you?
are these not examples of a ...[text shortened]... person displaying characteristics of depression?.....you seemed to agree that they were earlier.[/b]
You and I as outward observers may not notice ANY "display" at all.
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10 Jun 14
Originally posted by sonshipif that is the case then how do you know thats what proper knob is feeling? you suggested he was in denial when he disagreed.
They may not be "displayed". They are usually known only to the person himself or herself. Very, very personal.
You and I as outward observers may not notice ANY "display" at all.
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10 Jun 14
Originally posted by sonshipThe trouble with this, from your perspective, is that we know what we think and feel. We KNOW you are wrong.
If you claim you are making this claim because it says so in the bible then all you are doing is proving to us [yet again] that the bible is inaccurate.
Is it possible for you to be deceived about anything?
Have you ever ...[text shortened]... te]
Anybody can see that with my great chess scores that reasoning skills are pretty good.
Is it possible for you to be deceived about anything?
Yes. Stupid question.
Have you ever in your life been misled about something which latter you came to the realization you have been deceived ?
Yes. Stupid question.
Let's make this interesting. Do you remember the first time you kissed a girl ?
Yes. And none of your F***ing business. If you think I'm going to discuss my personal life on the
internet with a twerp like you you are delusional.
That is the least of your problems right now.
It wasn't my problem, it was yours. I don't have any problems right now.
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Originally posted by stellspalfieI think that not only the word of God is correct, but even much secular poetry, liturature, writings, biographies, testimonials pretty much confirm the same.
if that is the case then how do you know thats what proper knob is feeling? you suggested he was in denial when he disagreed.
My primary source is of course the Bible.
But even outside of the Bible too many confirmations exist that I am correct, though I may not be able to prove it.
Why did Alexander the Great die of alcoholism? He had conquered the whole known world.
Of the top of my head I recall that he requested to be buried with his arms extended outside of the casket. Go check me on this.
I think he wanted to make a statement that though he had conquered the whole world, he was empty handed. I believe that deep within he acutely felt that he did not have what could really fulfill him.
I think he felt a longing for an intimate touch and communion with a Person - God Himself.
You must have read the book of Ecclesiastes. Solomon, whom God permitted to have 600 wives plus 300 concubines, along with immense wealth, along with immense wisdom, along with great power, riches, treasures, and renown.
What did he say - "Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; Vanity of vanities; all is vanity."
You know that is just the beginning of it. It is all vanity.
As unique a bloke as Proper Knob is, I don't think he is that unique. So I think he also has by this time in life, felt the same vanity.
You like rock music maybe ?
Ever look at the lyrics of Procol Horum? Huh? "I Lighter Shade of Pale".
Ever hear of Jimmy Hendrix ? Do you recall a song by him called - " I Don't Live Today ".
In that song Hendrix said he only knew one thing. He did not LIVE today. He felt like he was living in the bottom of a grave. He felt the vanity of being without God within, though he may not have known WHY he felt dead.
Never saw a film by Ingamar Bergman ?
In too much artistic work of man far apart from the Bible is repeated the theme of human dissatisfaction.
Back to the word now - "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it." (John 1:4)
In Him, in Jesus Christ is the ZOE - the Divine Life which is the eternal Person of God Himself.
Now it is very difficult for some people to admit that they felt this vanity. I mean if you feel that it reveals in any way that you are a loser, you would not WANT to admit this.
But it is common to all men and women, in the fall we all became losers being "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) .
So if anyone chooses to say I am wrong, let them say so.
If someone wants to say "I am different. There is nothing about myself that indicates I am not perfectly whole right now as is."
Let them say so. But I think they eventually first have to be honest with themselves. It is not important that they come to sonship and say "You were right."
Besides, Buddhism says something very similar. The world is an illusion that cannot make a person feel satisfied. And to a degree there is some truth to that Buddhist proclamation.
so it ain't JUST the Bible.
10 Jun 14
Originally posted by sonshipThe real question is 'can it be shared'? You have insulated yourself by suggesting that it might not be possible for some of us to grasp, but now you feel like preaching. So either you have to give up your security, or give up the preaching. Whats it going to be?
I think one has to have some spiritual experience before one can grasp the wisdom of this speaking of Jesus.
Should I share it with you skeptics ?
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Originally posted by googlefudgeIs it possible for you to be deceived about anything?
Yes. Stupid question.
Have you ever in your life been misled about something which latter you came to the realization you have been deceived ?
Yes. Stupid question.
Let's make this interesting. Do you remember the first time you kissed a girl ?[/quot ...[text shortened]... s right now.
It wasn't my problem, it was yours. I don't have any problems right now.
It wasn't my problem, it was yours. I don't have any problems right now.
Oh. Well if that is the case NO WONDER you are so upset, cursing, swearing, angry.
You don't HAVE any problems.
That's different.
Oh, by the way. I thought that I had erased or changed my mind on the girlfriend thing. Sorry, I guess I overlooked that I had not erased it. My apologies.
Calm yourself.
10 Jun 14
I feel compelled to note that if Jesus was so wise, why is he mostly promoted by Christians? The wisdom of Confucious, or Budhist thinkers has spread around the world without the requirement of religion. If you do philosophy courses, you learn about Aristotle but not Jesus.
This seems to indicate that Jesus' wisdom is only wisdom within the context of Christianity, so the chances of convincing us atheists that it is wisdom are pretty slim. The chances of convincing us that they are the wisest words ever uttered, are even slimmer.