1. Subscriberdivegeester
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    11 Jun '21 03:29
    @sonship said
    Are you suggesting that universal salvation is shown in the bible to be inevitable?
    How did get that from my post asking you :

    “Are you suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled by God?”
  2. Subscriberdivegeester
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    11 Jun '21 03:30
    @sonship said
    The unreconciled creature never gives thanks to his Creator.
    He will not turn around after even years of blessing and think to
    thank God. It is sport to him to find reasons not to consider ever saying "At least God . . . Thankyou for this".
    It is sport to him to rationalize that no thanks whatsoever is due to the one who created him.
    How can and why would someone who design believe in a god or gods thank those gods he doesn’t believe exist?
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    Question to me:
    "Are you suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled by God?"

    Answer from me:
    "There are those whose deciding will will be to not ever be reconciled to God.
    Their decision will be to refuse to be."

    Question from me:
    "Are you suggesting that universal salvation is shown in the bible to be inevitable?"

    Response:
    "How did get that from my post asking you :
    "Are you suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled by God?"

    Me: I don't see any problem.
    No I am not suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled to God if
    if they choose reconciliation.
    Yes I am suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled to God if they refuse to be.

    Hence I said
    "There are those whose deciding will will be to not ever be reconciled to God.
    Their decision will be to refuse to be.

    Are you suggesting that universal salvation is shown in the bible to be inevitable?
    Ie. It is impossible that all people whoever have ever lived not be reconciled to God. Universal salvation. Like the Unitarian / Universalist.
  4. SubscriberFMF
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    11 Jun '21 09:07
    @sonship said
    Question to me:
    Here's one: what is the purpose behind you referring to non-Christians as "creatures"?
  5. Subscriberdivegeester
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    11 Jun '21 10:14
    @sonship

    DG "Are you suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled by God?"

    SS"There are those whose deciding will will be to not ever be reconciled to God. Their decision will be to refuse to be."

    SS "Are you suggesting that universal salvation is shown in the bible to be inevitable?"

    DG "How did get that from my post asking you :
    "Are you suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled by God?"

    SS I don't see any problem.
    No I am not suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled to God if if they choose reconciliation. Yes I am suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled to God if they refuse to be.

    DD But that isn’t the question I asked you. What I asked you was
    "Are you suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled by God?"

    This is an important distinction and I would appreciate knowing your view because the bible texts show that mankind cannot seek God, there hearts have turned away.
  6. Subscriberdivegeester
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    11 Jun '21 10:15
    @divegeester said
    How can and why would someone who design believe in a god or gods thank those gods he doesn’t believe exist?
    I would also appreciate a response from you on this sonship.
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    11 Jun '21 11:481 edit
    @divegeester

    "Are you suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled by God?"


    Does it appear that these men can or cannot be reconciled to God?

    "And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to burn men with fire. And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory." (Rev. 16:8,9)

    Can these be reconciled to God?

    "And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain and blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works." (vs,10,11)

    Can these be reconciled to God?

    It appears to me that the prophecy is showing us that some human beings, creatures of God, cannot be reconciled to God. They refuse. Whatever it is they are "enjoying" they love that more than God or being reconciled to God.
  8. SubscriberRajk999
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    11 Jun '21 11:561 edit
    @sonship said
    @divegeester

    "Are you suggesting that there are people who cannot be reconciled by God?"


    Does it appear that these men can or cannot be reconciled to God?

    [b]"And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to burn men with fire. And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, and t ...[text shortened]... refuse. Whatever it is they are "enjoying" they love that more than God or being reconciled to God.
    You cannot be reconciled to God and promoting or practicing mouth worship. You do not understand what reconciliation means. It means repentance from sin as v 10 ,11 states, and repentance means not going back to a life of sin, and it means obedience to commandments.

    You preach no such thing. You preach faith alone. This is not reconciliation. So whoever believes you and follows you are not reconciled to God. One has to believe and practice the teachings of Christ and only then is that person reconciled to God.
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    11 Jun '21 12:23
    @divegeester
    How can and why would someone who design believe in a god or gods thank those gods he doesn’t believe exist?


    I think I understand your question.
    And you say you would appreciate my answer.

    I would point you to appreciate the answer given by the Bible.
    Man is without excuse to not believe in God because of the witness of the
    things created testify to God's nature and characteristics as supreme Being.

    "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold down the truth in unrighteousness.

    Because that which is known of God is manifest within them, for God manifested it to them.

    For the invisible things of Him, both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they are without excuse;

    Because though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or thank Him, but rather became vain in their reasonings, and their heart, lacking understanding, was darkened.

    Professing to be wise, they became fools . . . " (See Romans 1:18-22)


    This is not the answer to every question. This is the answer I think to the question of how can men be thankful to God yet not believing in God.

    I think essentially the apostle Paul under inspiration is saying that no one has an excuse to not believe in a supreme Creator - God. They have to "hold down the truth in unrighteousness."

    This seems more an act of the will power than the intellect. That is to suppress willfully what would rise up in their conscience. In history there have been some mighty "hold downers".
  10. SubscriberRajk999
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    11 Jun '21 13:341 edit
    @sonship said
    @divegeester
    How can and why would someone who design believe in a god or gods thank those gods he doesn’t believe exist?


    I think I understand your question.
    And you say you would appreciate my answer.

    I would point you to appreciate the answer given by the Bible.
    Man is without excuse to not believe in God because of the witness ...[text shortened]... ully what would rise up in their conscience. In history there have been some mighty "hold downers".
    According to Paul here in Romans 1, you are doing to very same thing which you are accusing the atheists and agnostics of. In fact a Christian like you and an atheist are in the very same predicament.

    Paul addresses these two issues:

    Atheist / agnostic, professes no knowledge of God and live their lives without law and according to their conscience. God will judge them by the law by which they live :
    For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one anotheršŸ˜‰ (Romans 2:14-15 KJV)

    Christians / Jews. on the other hand professes that they believe in God and that they have faith. Here Paul says:

    Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? (Romans 2:1-3 KJV)

    You for example believe that your profession of faith makes you escape the righteous judgment of God. You believe that no matter what you do God cannot remove your name from the book of life and will eventually get eternal life. There is no such doctrine in the bible.

    All mankind will be judged the same :

    .. the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.
    (Romans 2:4-11 KJV)


    EVERY man, who does good, gets rewarded with immortality and eternal life
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    11 Jun '21 16:325 edits
    @Rajk999

    You for example believe that your profession of faith makes you escape the righteous judgment of God.

    The saved do not undergo a judgment for eternal life because they have been judged already on the cross of Calvary at Golgotha.

    But the saved do undergo the judgment bema or judgment seat of Christ to determine their reward OR discipline at the close of the church age.

    "We" in these two verses is not [WE human beings]. It is WE the saved Christians including Paul himself.

    "For WE must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad." (2 Cor. 5:10)

    "But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For WE will all stand before the judgment seat of God, . . . So then each one of US will give an account of himself to God." (See Rom. 14:10-12)

    The judgment seat of God or the judgment seat of Christ for "WE" Christians is for REWARD of our Christian life AFTER we were eternally redeemed.


    You believe that no matter what you do God cannot remove your name from the book of life and will eventually get eternal life.

    If I did not believe one discipline Christ could enact will be to erase one's name from the book of life, I would not refer as I have multiple times to Revelation 3:5.

    Once Saved Always Saved does not mean Once Saved Always Rewarded.

    IF you pretend that I have not expounded Revelation's warning about erasing the name from the book of life in this manner you would be lying to yourself.

    Revelation 3:5 concerns the loss of reward. As all the warnings or promises in Revelation 2 and 3 pertain to Reward OR Discipline, being an overcomer or being defeated.
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    11 Jun '21 16:353 edits

    There is no such doctrine in the bible.


    The doctrinal truth of loss of reward to those with eternal life and eternal redemption is in the Bible:

    "If anyone's work which he has built upon THE FOUNDATION [Christ] remains, he will receive a reward;

    If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:16,17)



    All mankind will be judged the same :


    The same book says that by works of the law NO FLESH will be justified.

    "Because out of the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; for through the law is the clear knowledge of sin." (Rom. 3:20)

    "For we account that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."
    (Rom. 3:28)


    Just as you criticize me so the first century legalists slanderously criticized Paul, accusing him of teaching that man should sin that grace may abound, or do evil that good may come.

    "And why not say (as we are slanderously charged and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil that good may come? whose judgment is just." (Rom. 1:8)

    That is "some" like Rajk999 who slanderously accuses the gospel proclaimer of encouraging believers to sin all the more. Shame on you.

    .. the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.
    (Romans 2:4-11 KJV)


    I'll speak to this in another post.


    EVERY man, who does good, gets rewarded with immortality and eternal life


    I'll speak to this in another post.
  13. SubscriberRajk999
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    11 Jun '21 16:391 edit
    @sonship said

    You for example believe that your profession of faith makes you escape the righteous judgment of God.

    The saved do not undergo a judgment for eternal life because they have been judged already on the cross of Calvary at Golgotha.
    You cannot quote anything from the teachings of Christ. You are proficient at quoting twisted, manipulated and cherry picked passages that support your failed doctrine of do nothing and mouth worship, full of false conclusions most of which contradict Christ.

    You want to contradict Christ and then turn around and expect Christ to give you eternal life? You preach the doctrine of damnation
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    11 Jun '21 16:462 edits
    @Rajk999

    You cannot quote anything from the teachings of Christ. You are proficient at quoting twisted, manipulated and cherry picked passages that support your failed doctrine of do nothing and mouth worship, full of false conclusions most of which contradict Christ.

    I did quote to you 1 Cor. 3:16,17 and Romans 14:10.

    The epistles of Paul ARE the teaching of Jesus Christ.

    You say, that I cannot quote anything of Christ to correspond to those verses?
    One question:

    Are you sure about that ?

    What will you do when I show you absolutely Jesus spoke it BEFORE His apostle spoke it. What will you do ??
  15. SubscriberRajk999
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    11 Jun '21 17:02
    @sonship said
    @Rajk999

    You cannot quote anything from the teachings of Christ. You are proficient at quoting twisted, manipulated and cherry picked passages that support your failed doctrine of do nothing and mouth worship, full of false conclusions most of which contradict Christ.

    I did quote to you 1 Cor. 3:16,17 and Romans 14:10.

    The epistles of ...[text shortened]... ll you do when I show you absolutely Jesus spoke it BEFORE His apostle spoke it. What will you do ??
    Christ is not Paul. You cherry pick passages from Paul and ignore the parts about righteousness which is a necessary requrement for inheritance in the Kingdom of God. That makes you a dangerous liar. Quote what Christ said about eternal life.
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