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27 Feb 18
I’ve always thought evil came into the world after the fall of man.
What to make of Ezekiel chapter 28 which seems to refer to Lucifer in the Garden of Eden before he was cast out of heaven.
“Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”
(Ezekiel 28:11-19)
27 Feb 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterMaybe he has first-hand knowledge.????
Why would a Christian start a thread like this.
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Originally posted by @romans1009I actually have to revise this. I should have said I thought evil came into existence after God created the heavens, earth and all that is therein but before the fall of man.
I’ve always thought evil came into the world after the fall of man.
What to make of Ezekiel chapter 28 which seems to refer to Lucifer in the Garden of Eden before he was cast out of heaven.
“Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Th ...[text shortened]... nished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”
(Ezekiel 28:11-19)
Obviously evil was in existence before the fall of man because man was tempted by satan to sin against God.
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Originally posted by @divegeesterThis thread is useful in the subject of spiritual warfare.
Why would a Christian start a thread like this.
The warfare is over the earth between God and His enemy. Man's vessel is to be filled with God. Man filled with the life of God as a manifested son of God is what causes the creation to be freed from the slavery of corruption.
"For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God." (Rom. 8:19)
Satan knows this. To send demons into sinful men is a part of his scheme to maintain the earth for his kingdom
"For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it. (v.20
In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (v.21)
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27 Feb 18
This is a good time to answer the second question:
2.) Why did the demon possessed men hang around graves and tombs?
The demons lose their whole on man when man is alienated from God and God's life and nature. The tombs is a place of man's ultimate weakness. He is dead. Here those evil spirits knew they had the best chance to secure their stronghold on the possessed men.
They knew no people like to go to the place of death, he grace. There they had the best chance to be left alone.
Continuing with Romans 8 all creation is groaning for release from corruption and death at the manifestation of men filled to the brim with the life of God - sons of God.
"For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. And not only so, but we [Christians] ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves,
eagerly awaiting sonship. the redemption of our body." (Rom. 8:22,23)
From the inside out - from the center to the circumference of man's being he is to be swallowed up by the life of God manifesting the sons of God. And the manifesting of the sons of God is the liberation of the earth for God's kingdom.
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Originally posted by @romans1009The jurisdiction of the Anointed Cherub was over the earth.
I’ve always thought evil came into the world after the fall of man.
What to make of Ezekiel chapter 28 which seems to refer to Lucifer in the Garden of Eden before he was cast out of heaven.
“Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Th ...[text shortened]... nished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”
(Ezekiel 28:11-19)
And beings on the earth deceived in his all out rebellion against God became the demons.
They are the dead in revelation 20:13 who are in the sea and are brought forth to also be judged.
I can prove this.
"and the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works.
And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (s.13,14)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more." (21:1)
1.) Hades is the receptacle for all the dead human beings. However and where ever they died, on mountain, in desert, at sea, in the city or wilderness, the SOULS of all dead human beings are in Hades.
2.) Since it mentions that the sea gave up the dead it would be redundant to mention that Hades gave up the dead too if the people drowning at sea were in Hades.
3.) Therefore the dead in the sea are distinct from the dead in Hades. The dead in the sea are the dead who are the demons in the present age. They rebelliously come out of the sea to wander about in "waterless places" seeking to demon possess the bodies of humans on earth.
4.) The absence of Death and Hades in verse 14 means that the receptacle prison for humans has no longer any use.
And the absence of the sea ("... and the sea is no more" ) (21:1) stands for the receptacle prison of demons also will have no more use. The dead beings judged in the pre-adamic age are today are unclean spirits without bodies.
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Originally posted by @philokalia
The demons are the fallen angels.
Angels do not have bodies and are "disembodied spirits" for lack of a better word.
A third of all angels are demons; this is based off of a passage in Revelations about a third of the stars being blotted out. One romantic interpretation that Fr. Chad Ripperger puts forward based on traditional Catholicism is that ...[text shortened]... -- or are we totally dispensing with the Bible and just constructing the scenario that we want?
The demons are the fallen angels.
Can you then point out where it says angels possessed the bodies of sinners?
Can you locate a verse that a legion of angels inhabited a poor sinner's body?
The Bible shows possession of evil spirits. And for certain the bad angels are evil spirits. But we do not have an interchangeable use of angels and evil spirit or demons in the Bible.
Angels do not have bodies and are "disembodied spirits" for lack of a better word.
Disembodied would mean that they LOST the body that they once had. I don't see this about angels in the Bible.
The demons on the other hand CRAVED to be in bodies.
If they could not have their own, they would settle for a human body. If they could not have a human body, they would settle for an animal body, like a hog.
The order of their preference can be analyzed in Matthew 8 and 12 from most desirable to least desirable place to exist.
1.) Demons would prefer the bodies they had in another age.
2.) If those are deprived them they seek sinful humans' bodies as the next best thing.
3.) If those are deprived them they seek animal bodies if expelled by Christ.
4.) They will return to their place of assigned confinement, the sea, if that option does not work.
5.) They loath to wander without rest out of the sea, out of waterlesss places.
6.) Least of all they dread the eternal torment to which they know they will be assigned one day.
They complained that the Son of God might be coming to torment them "before the time".
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27 Feb 18
4 edits
There is no reason to believe that there is some pre-human remnant of ensouled beings that became demons. What is the Biblical basis for that -- or are we totally dispensing with the Bible and just constructing the scenario that we want?
There is biblical reason for an ancient earth, ancient Satanic rebellion before the restoration of the earth in six days for a new creature - human kind.
The Pharisees had some idea that there was a distinction between angels and spirits.
Acts 23:9,10 -
" for the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel nor spirit, but the Pharisees confess both.
And there was a great outcry, and some of the scribes of the Pharisees' party rose up and contended, saying, We find nothing evil in this man. And what if a spirit has spoken to him, or an angel? " (Acts. 23:9,10)
They may not have been too clear about the nature of demons. But they showed that aside from angels there were also spirits.
angels + other spirits
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In the new heaven and new earth "the sea is no more" .
In the six days of Genesis 1 the first thing seen is the sea.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. But the earth became waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep." (Gen. 1:1,2)
The translation is acceptable though not usual in English renderings. This is the Recovery Version.
The first edition of the Emphasized Bible by George Bryant Rotherham contained a note that a previous overthrow of divine judgment is indicated in the play on words "waste and emptiness".
The expression in Hebrew is like what French might call "topsy-turvy" or English might say "helter-skelter".
The play on the two words together (not necessarily separate) is that a divine overthrow of judgement has taken place.
My point briefly is that beings of a pre-adamic age were subject to that judgment. The nature of them we know little about. They were not human.
They seem to be assigned to the sea in the same way dead human beings have their immaterial parts assigned to Hades.
In rebellion the judged creators somehow, with the aid of evil powers, come up out of their assigned realm and wander about in "waterless places" seeking to gain homes in the bodies of sinful humans.
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Man must not only be tidied up and decorated superficially. Man must be filled with the Spirit of God. Man is a vessel deigned to contain God Himself as life compounded with man's created life.
The man with the demon expelled did not become filled with God, but only superficially tidied up. And the demons ganged up in a stronger team and re-possessed him.
"Then [the unclean spirit] it says, I will return into my house from which I came out; and having come, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and decorated.
Then it goes and takes with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter in and make their home there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. Thus shall it also be to this evil generation." (Matt. 12:44,45)
This is a warning that human ethics and good behavior are only like a house unoccupied, swept, and decorated, but not filled with the Holy Spirit.
The humanistic ethical religion can only have an empty man swept a little, deconrated. But God does not enter into him. And though he was previously possessed by demons, they come back in force and re-enter.
The vessel of our being must be filled with God within.
That is internally occupied with the living God Who can dispense Himself into us.
27 Feb 18
Originally posted by @karoly-aczelThe Lord that you don't believe in? That Lord?
Because of me and my recent proclamations. He thinks he's cautioning the forum against bad influences , but everyone knows in their heart , it's just clouded in most hearts. All good . Change is in the air and the winds are blowing the clouds away . Praise the Lord
27 Feb 18
Originally posted by @sonshipOn what day did god create them?
They had bodies in the age before man was created.
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27 Feb 18
2 edits
Originally posted by @wolfgang59I don't know the day of their creation. If you have been reading the posts you would know that it was before the six days mentioned in Genesis 1.
On what day did god create them?
Their original creation was sometime before the earth was seen as waste and void in the beginning of the six days of God making a restored world for human beings.
So the word "pre-adamic" means sometime between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (v.1)
But the earth became waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep." (v.2 Recovery Version)
Other renderings of Genesis 1:2
Good News Translation
the earth was formless and desolate. The raging ocean that covered everything was engulfed in total darkness ...
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
Christian Standard Bible
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
Contemporary English Version
The earth was barren, with no form of life; it was under a roaring ocean covered with darkness. But the Spirit of God was moving over the water.
Good News Translation
the earth was formless and desolate. The raging ocean that covered everything was engulfed in total darkness, and the Spirit of God was moving over the water.
Webster's Bible Translation
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
World English Bible
Now the earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep. God's Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.
Young's Literal Translation
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
02 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipAs an aside, and to parallel and contrast with this Christian view of angels and demons (good and evil) there is an interesting understanding that comes from Shintoism.
Demons are unclean and evil spirits.
Demons are not fallen angels.
RJHinds and I had this debate a few years ago.
He is no longer here. But I will explain the better interpretation of the origin of demons again.
Demons are disembodied spirits of some creatures which lived in the ages before Adam the first man was created.
If there are some hones ...[text shortened]... liously roam the earth.
They have followed Satan in his rebellion like the bad angels though.
During my ongoing and tortuous attempt to learn Japanese (not going well) I had already come across the simple word for God. (Pronounced 'Kami' ) but was then surprised, and a little annoyed, that I also had to learn 2 much longer words for God, 'Aramitama' and 'Nigimitama.' - I then discovered that God (Kami) traditionally had two aspects to his character, called the aramitama and the nigimitama. “Mitama” means spirit or soul, while “ara” means wild and violent, and “nigi” means calm and peaceful. Basically 'The nigimitama is the peaceful aspect of the kami, bringing blessings to people, while the aramitama is violent and active.'
I'm obviously not a Shintoist, but there is something rather intriguing about the idea of God having 2 sides to his nature, being both 'good' and 'bad'. - Below is further clarity from a site I found:
'A kami’s nigimitama favours the status quo. The nigimitama is a force for stability, but not stasis. Kami are fundamentally concerned with growth, so even the nigimitama is in favour of growth and development. However, that growth and development happens within the boundaries that are already set.
The aramitama, on the other hand, favours change. The change doesn’t have to be instant, but it goes beyond what was expected and predicted. This change disrupts the established order, makes plans impossible to carry out, and creates new options.
Most people want to avoid too much unexpected change. It is hard and stressful to deal with, even if it is ultimately good. The rulers of a country like unexpected change even less, as it almost always reduces their power. Further, many of the obvious examples of unexpected change are negative: natural disasters, plagues, deaths. This explains why the nigimitama is, and always has been, more popular. On the other hand, it is obvious that, sometimes, the aramitama’s intervention is what you want or need.'
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02 Mar 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @sonshipHow...specifically and precisely, how?
This thread is useful in the subject of spiritual warfare.
Currently there are 30 posts in this thread and you have made 16 of them and hardly any in response to other posters.
You are just spamming.