12 Jun 15
Originally posted by CalJustFrom a purely human viewpoint, if I had created man, I'd be sorry too.
Let me respond to some posts and then in a separate post give my own solution of this conundrum.
Firstly, [b] Josephw : Who said I was being disingenuous:
Yes, (thanks, KJ) I DO have a life, but I will respond to your points.
You wrote: [i] Every word and phrase and verse must be compared to all the rest of scripture to get a better understanding o ...[text shortened]... did, for whatever reason, then one can safely say it was a mistake to do it in the first place.[/b]
But I didn't create man. If God regrets creating man, I can understand why, but the last thing I would be so presumptuous as to assert is that God made any mistakes.
You're projecting onto God your own human bias. In other words, you're creating God in your own image.
And by the way, you haven't even begun to address my replies to your OP.
You are being disingenuous to say the least.
13 Jun 15
Originally posted by josephwWhy such anger?
From a purely human viewpoint, if I had created man, I'd be sorry too.
But I didn't create man. If God regrets creating man, I can understand why, but the last thing I would be so presumptuous as to assert is that God made any mistakes.
You're projecting onto God your own human bias. In other words, you're creating God in your own image.
And by the ...[text shortened]... n't even begun to address my replies to your OP.
You are being disingenuous to say the least.
Your first response to my OP said nothing worth responding too - you didn't even attempt to answer my question, merely chose to attack me.
13 Jun 15
Originally posted by CalJustWhere in the text does it say God made a mistake. What verse is that, please?
I have been maligned for claiming that God makes mistakes, but that is precisely what the text says, not I.
I claim that God does NOT make mistakes, and therefore this text is suspect. Let me explain:
No matter how much theology one wants to put into these passages, the text is actually very clear. Even (and especially) in the context, the story is a v ...[text shortened]... anciscan monk) says: the literal meaning is the lowest form of understanding of any Bible verse.
13 Jun 15
Originally posted by CalJustNaw!
Why such anger?
Your first response to my OP said nothing worth responding too - you didn't even attempt to answer my question, merely chose to attack me.
I think you're misinterpreting my replies. If it looks like anger I apologize, and perhaps I should be more careful about how I express my objections and not have them appear as a personal attack.
I object to your presentation and characterization of God, not you personally.
I don't see a question posed in your OP directed toward anyone. What's your question?
13 Jun 15
Originally posted by josephwIf you want your objections to not appear to be a personal attack, perhaps you should present an argument showing that CalJust is mistaken rather than accusing him of being disingenuous.
I think you're misinterpreting my replies. If it looks like anger I apologize, and perhaps I should be more careful about how I express my objections and not have them appear as a personal attack.
13 Jun 15
Originally posted by josephwI did not pose any presentation or characterization of God.
I object to your presentation and characterization of God, not you personally.
I don't see a question posed in your OP directed toward anyone. What's your question?
I quoted some scriptures which show very clearly, in unambiguous terms, that God decided something, and then later when things seemed to go wrong, decided something else. The words used for this in the Bible are that God "Regretted" , and "repented", and such.
These are the words used by the Bible, not by me.
I merely pointed out that these verses and the stories in which they appear, taken in the context of the rest of the Bible, show a totally different kind of God.
My implied question was: how do you reconcile my three quotations with the rest of the Bible?
Do you understand now? Or am I still being disingenuous?
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13 Jun 15
1 edit
Originally posted by CalJust
My implied question was: how do you reconcile my three quotations with the rest of the Bible?
How do you think we should think when we are told that we were predestinated to be God's sons "before the foundation of the world." (Eph. 1:4)
This strongly indicates that before the world came into being, before any mistakes, any repentence, and "regreting", and fall or mishap of any kind, God foreordained that His eternal plan would be carried out to have sons.
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."
This verse strongly suggests that it was based on God's plan that He created the universe and time. So any Divine "regretting" or "repenting" may be for our education mainly. Nothing could stop His eternal plan ordained before the creation of the universe to have spotless sons of God sharing His divine life and nature.
How about we take your passages along with other passages ?
He knew beforehand that nothing will deter Him from fulfilling His eternal purpose.
I am just saying that since BOTH matters are spoken in the Bible, we should be enlarged to embrace them both.
13 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonshipYou are basically confirming what I said about there being many other passages which say that God DOES have a plan, and that that plan is being fulfilled.
How about we take your passages along with other passages ?
He knew beforehand that nothing will deter Him from fulfilling His eternal purpose.
I am just saying that since BOTH matters are spoken in the Bible, we should be enlarged to embrace them both.
But do you think it is possible that God does NOT regret anything, and at the same time (as it says in these passages) that He DOES regret something?
Isn't that a logical impossibility? Almost like saying that you DID write that post, but also DID NOT write that post?
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13 Jun 15
2 edits
Originally posted by CalJustYou are basically confirming what I said about there being many other passages which say that God DOES have a plan, and that that plan is being fulfilled.
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I've been writing about that here for years.
But do you think it is possible that God does NOT regret anything, and at the same time (as it says in these passages) that He DOES regret something?
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He is grieved about our disobedience obviously. If not the New Testament would not tell the Christians not to grieve the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 4:30)
Holman Christian Standard Bible
And don't grieve God's Holy Spirit. You were sealed by Him for the day of redemption.
International Standard Version
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit, by whom you were marked with a seal for the day of redemption.
That is a kind of dissatisfaction of God with the believer's not heeding the Holy Spirit. Fortunately, for such we have the blood of Christ to bring us back into fellowship.
The instances in the Bible of God being sorry about something He did, I take as more of a disclosure of His heart for our learning.
In Exodus 32 we have God so angry with the golden calf worshippers that He tells Moses "Now therefore let Me alone, that My anger may burn against hem, and I may consume them, and I will make you into a great nation." (v.10)
It sounds like God is ready to forget the whole thing with the Hebrews and start all over again. It is hard to argue that this doesn't show a side of God being sorry.
Following you have Moses doing a beautiful job of interceding for Israel. Moses says in essence - if God punishes them severely the Egyptians will say that He only delivered them to kills them.
He tells God to remember Abraham, Isaac and Israel and the promises He made to them. And as you have pointed out God is moved by the interceding of Moses and repents!
"Thus Jehovah repented of the evil which He said He would to do His people." (v.14)
There you go. God repenting and deciding not to cut off the whole plan and start over again. But in all this I see Moses as a type of Christ. I see a window into the plan of salvation.
To me this is more the importance of passages like this. It shows God sticking to His plan and not being derailed in intention by man's failure.
I think we need to see this. Now let me close this post with the words of Moses to persuade God not to destroy the idol worshiping Israelites who have broken the Law even before it was delivered to them.
And Moses entreated Jehovah his God and said, Jehovah, why does Your anger burn against Your people, whom You brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, With evil intent He brought them out, to slay them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth?
Turn from Your burning anger, and repent of this evil against Your people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore and said to them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of I will give to your seed, and they shall inherit it forever." (vs.12,13)
It is a revelation into God's faithfulness to His own word.
13 Jun 15
2 edits
Originally posted by CalJustBut do you think it is possible that God does NOT regret anything, and at the same time (as it says in these passages) that He DOES regret something?
You are basically confirming what I said about there being many other passages which say that God DOES have a plan, and that that plan is being fulfilled.
But do you think it is possible that God does NOT regret anything, and at the same time (as it says in these passages) that He DOES regret something?
Isn't that a logical impossibility? Almost like saying that you DID write that post, but also DID NOT write that post?
Isn't that a logical impossibility? Almost like saying that you DID write that post, but also DID NOT write that post?
What you seem to fail to realize is that not everything that might initially appear to be logically impossible actually is. For example, the planet Vienne et Viennu.
As explained by the eminent Father Guido Sarducci:
Well, there's this-a new planet that they spotted. It's gonna be something, it's got these-a astronomers baffled in the house. [ holds up photo of the galaxy ] This is it right-a here, I hope-a you can-a see it. They call it SS-433, and they found out it's-a coming toward Earth at 30,000 miles a second. But.. it's also going away from Earth at 30,000 miles a second. It seems-a to be coming and-a going. It just breaks all the laws of physics, they don't know what to make of it.
So I went to the-a Vatican library, looked up these old archives - you know we've been-a involved with astronomy and astrology for years and years , hundreds of years. And, I did-a find it, in-a this old book. The planet was called Vienne et Viennu Planet.. it means A-Coming and A-Going Planet.. and the book says that there is life there, and it's-a very interesting.
It says that everyone there lives to be 200 years old. But it's not like they get to be real old.. what happens is, they get to 100, then they start going back again. It's like, 70, 80, 90, 100.. then, 90, 80, 70, 60.. then you're like a teenager again, then you know a kid again, and then you know.. you have to go back. I understand this-a little article says it's even-a more tramautic than-a being born.
And what's interesting - people on this planet, just from looking at one another, they can't tell who's-a coming and who's-a going. So, like, maybe two peple meet, they're 20 years old, a fellow and a girl. They're 20, and first you know, he's 22 and she's 18.. then, you know, he's-a 25 and she's-a 15.. and you know pretty soon you find yourselves in a lot of trouble...
14 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonshipThe example of Moses "changing God's plan" is of course another example of anthropomorphic behaviour on the part of God.
There you go. God repenting and deciding not to cut off the whole plan and start over again.
It is a revelation into God's faithfulness to His own word.
It is not a revelation of "God's faithfulness to his own, " but a view by a human author ascribing certain behaviour to God, which, on a few seconds reflection, cannot be the actual behaviour of an omnipotent deity.
16 Jun 15
Originally posted by RJHindsAmazing how you think you know the mind of a god. Especially since the bible was just written by men who INVENTED this god, made it in man's likeness so ordinary people could identify with it.
I did not see God saying He made a mistake in those three verses you quoted in the OP. God is just not happy with the way things are going, that's all.
Amazing how well brainwashed you all are by a 3000 year old religion. Also amazing how you cherry pick what you want to believe and what you don't want to believe in the bible.
So you think the 'new testament' is the real deal while the old testament is just that, old.
So you rationalize one the one hand, your god is supposed to be omniscient, and on the other all the books in the OT are now up for sale, you don't have to listen to them, except for Genesis of course, that is written in stone for you, but you cherry pick out Leviticus, for instance.