The Good Book

Originally posted by twhitehead
As far as I can tell, you are saying we should get rid of the Capitalist system where we believe we are working largely for our own benefit and replace it with one where we work for the common good. Are you willing to do that personally? Do you currently do that?

I am willing to do that, yes.

I currently live in a capitalist system, though, and have little choice but to abide by its rules.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I'm going to lengthen the list until it includes a number of people on this forum. Of course all Americans will be included as it is ultimately their fault. If it wasn't for the US (supported by its citizens), capitalism and the associated poverty would not have such a strangle hold on the world.
Next I will add all Europeans (because of their protectionist policies).
And Zimbabweans for having a good thing and then wasting it.

Slippery slope.

Originally posted by rwingett
I am willing to do that, yes.

I currently live in a capitalist system, though, and have little choice but to abide by its rules.

You are in no way forced to work solely for yourself. There is nothing whatsoever stopping you from working to help those starving millions.

Originally posted by rwingett
Slippery slope.

Yes it is. And as with all good slippery slope arguments, it asks the question: where do you stop, and why?

You appear to blame the richest in society, when in reality most of them had very little to do with setting up the system. Sure, they participated in it and benefited from it, and quite likely encouraged it, but then so did you - and you continue to do so.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are in no way forced to work solely for yourself. There is nothing whatsoever stopping you from working to help those starving millions.

Working to alleviate suffering within a system which actively breeds suffering amounts to merely treating the symptoms. Far better to cure the disease by altering the system itself.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes it is. And as with all good slippery slope arguments, it asks the question: where do you stop, and why?

You appear to blame the richest in society, when in reality most of them had very little to do with setting up the system. Sure, they participated in it and benefited from it, and quite likely encouraged it, but then so did you - and you continue to do so.

Everyone on the planet is born into an already existing system, which they had no control over. You are immersed within that system from birth. But everyone has a choice to do what they can to alter that system. Everyone could do more than they have, but the point is to do something.

Originally posted by rwingett
I am willing to do that, yes.

I currently live in a capitalist system, though, and have little choice but to abide by its rules.

And this is where your idealistic and naive view of utopia breaks down. You (and everybody else in the world) are not prepared to open their house to the beggar on the street, to give the needy the wealth that they do actually have - now.

I like you, but you annoy me. You criticise theists like myself who dream of a better future for mankind because we are allegedly irrational and deluded, yet there are many Christians (some of whom I know of personally) who give their wealth and very lives for what they believe in. You preach the preach, but lack the courage to step out into the philosophy you proclaim.

Originally posted by divegeester
And this is where your idealistic and naive view of utopia breaks down. You (and everybody else in the world) are not prepared to open their house to the beggar on the street, to give the needy the wealth that they do actually have - now.

I like you, but you annoy me. You criticise theists like myself who dream of a better future for mankind because ...[text shortened]... e in. You preach the preach, but lack the courage to step out into the philosophy you proclaim.

Charity (if that's what you're advocating) is futile. It does not address the root causes behind the problems it seeks to ameliorate. Far better to change the way the world is run so as to make charity unnecessary. Liberation Theology and other Christian Socialists recognize this, and I applaud them for their efforts. I do not criticize all theists equally.

But you have no idea what I do, or have done, with my time and wealth to help others. None, whatsoever.

Originally posted by divegeester
And this is where your idealistic and naive view of utopia breaks down. You (and everybody else in the world) are not prepared to open their house to the beggar on the street, to give the needy the wealth that they do actually have - now.

I like you, but you annoy me. You criticise theists like myself who dream of a better future for mankind because ...[text shortened]... e in. You preach the preach, but lack the courage to step out into the philosophy you proclaim.

If you actually paid attention to my posts over time, you would have noticed the several times when I have praised the Hutterites. They are an Anabaptist group, similar to the Amish, except they have a communal lifestyle and practice a common ownership of goods. Private property is almost non-existent within their communities. I still disagree with their belief in god, but otherwise find their society to be far superior to western consumerist capitalism. If all Christians were like the Hutterites, I might be willing to say that Christianity was a good thing.

My criticism is not directed at Christians per say, but, rather, is directed at conservatives. Christians tend to be conservatives, so they are frequently the targets of my wrath. But there are a number of left wing Christians who I have a great admiration for. Martin Luther King, Jr., Dorothy Day, and various other liberation theologians, Christian socialists and Christian anarchists. I feel I have more in common with them than I do with atheists like Ayn Rand (for whom I have nothing but unbridled contempt).

Originally posted by rwingett
Charity (if that's what you're advocating) is futile. It does not address the root causes behind the problems it seeks to ameliorate. Far better to change the way the world is run so as to make charity unnecessary.

So how is what you are advocating not charity. I thought it was. What am I not understanding?
I thought you were advocating a world where people do not just work for themselves and personal gain, but work for others as well (charity).

Originally posted by rwingett
Charity (if that's what you're advocating) is futile. It does not address the root causes behind the problems it seeks to ameliorate. Far better to change the way the world is run so as to make charity unnecessary. Liberation Theology and other Christian Socialists recognize this, and I applaud them for their efforts. I do not criticize all theists equally. ...[text shortened]... ave no idea what I do, or have done, with my time and wealth to help others. None, whatsoever.

I'm not advocating charity, in fact I deeply suspicious of most of them financially speaking.

I'm asking you to live what you preach. You said "I currently live in a capitalist system, though, and have little choice but to abide by its rules..

I find this annoying in the light of your continued criticism of Christians, some of whom actually DO SOMETHING to change the world or alleviate suffering. Are you an agent for change, or merely an ageing intellectual who dreams of the summer of love and blow jobs in the park.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm not advocating charity, in fact I deeply suspicious of most of them financially speaking.

I'm asking you to live what you preach. You said [b]"I currently live in a capitalist system, though, and have little choice but to abide by its rules..

I find this annoying in the light of your continued criticism of Christians, some of whom actually ...[text shortened]... or merely an ageing intellectual who dreams of the summer of love and blow jobs in the park.[/b]

Man, you're a tough customer. What do you expect me to do? Throw Molotov cocktails through bank windows, or something? OK, here's my revolutionary resume:

As people who follow my posts already know, I never tire of regaling them about my time at East Wind Community. That's right, I have been to the mountaintop. I have seen the promised land. And it lies in southern Missouri. It's an egalitarian socialist commune of about 80 people. I lived there for a year in my younger days, when I was footloose and fancy free. That's got to count for something, right?

I marched in one anti-war demonstration several years ago. Not impressed with that one? Fair enough.

In my younger days I attended one meeting of the Revolutionary Communist Party, in downtown Detroit. From day one it was apparent that they were Stalinists and I never went to another of their meetings. For a number of years I subscribed to "The People", which was the newspaper of the Socialist Labor Party.

I wrote to get information about becoming a brigadista, to go to Nicaragua and help offset the damage done by the US sponsored war of aggression. The cost involved was prohibitive, though, and I never did go. Yeah, I know, that's not very impressive, but it was something that I was passionate about. I did subscribe to 'Barricada Internacional', which was the English language newspaper of the Sandinista Party, for a number of years.

The rest are lifestyle changes that my wife and I have made. Society will not change until people change themselves first, and their own habits in turn. So we have started with the following:

1. We have moved all of our savings out of major banks and into local credit unions. This may not seem like a big deal to you, but I think it is the no. 1 thing progressives can do to bring about positive change. De-fund the big banks that are screwing up the world. I also canceled my Citibank Visa card and got a Wainright Bank Visa card (they are a socially responsible bank).

2. We buy a large part of our meat and produce at our local farmer's market. We are striving to contribute less and less to big agribusiness and spend more of our food dollars on local, sustainable farms. This year we've purchased a share in a local CSA (Community supported agriculture). We're even going to grow a small garden this year.

3. We are always on the lookout for opportunities to buy products from small, local, union, or worker owned businesses whenever possible. My last three pair of jeans I purchased online from allamericanclothing.com. My tennis shoes were purchased from New Balance and are, to the best of my knowledge, the only tennis shoes still manufactured in the US. I have changed toothpaste, shampoo, soap and a host of other products in order to buy from more socially responsible companies. Twhitehead and others will rail on about "protectionism", but I believe boycotting multinational corporations in favor of small, local businesses whenever possible is a good way to push for positive social change.

So there you have it, that's about all I can think of off the top of my head. You could shake your head and say that it isn't enough, and you would be right. It isn't enough. I could do more. We could all do more. But I believe I have made some positive changes, and will continue to make more as I go.

Originally posted by rwingett
Twhitehead and others will rail on about "protectionism", but I believe boycotting multinational corporations in favor of small, local businesses whenever possible is a good way to push for positive social change.

That is because it is protectionism. I really cant see how you reconcile your protectionism with your desire to deal with world hunger.
If you preferred small businesses over multinationals, I might be more understanding, but your insistence on local is protectionism. But even your dislike of multinationals doesn't make a lot of sense. What do you have against them? How are they less capitalist than your local companies? They are certainly more efficient.

Originally posted by rwingett
Man, you're a tough customer. What do you expect me to do? Throw Molotov cocktails through bank windows, or something? OK, here's my revolutionary resume:

As people who follow my posts already know, I never tire of regaling them about my time at East Wind Community. That's right, I have been to the mountaintop. I have seen the promised land. And it lies eve I have made some positive changes, and will continue to make more as I go.

Good interesting stuff thanks for sharing. I do believe in some of what you are talking about, here is my perspective which is probably more pragmatic:

I believe in supporting local business, but not if what they supply is crap or stupidly expensive with no tangible extra benefit to me

I believe is having fun while your young and I would have definitely lived in a commune with a bunch horny women had I been given the opportunity.

I'm anti war but only in the sense that 'keeping the peace' in someone else's oil field is less pragmatic and less moral, than developing your own safe nuclear energy whilst you allow the desert dwellers to eat their own young and contemplate the value of blending social equity with economic progress in a changing world that no longer accepts religious dogma as reason to behead someone.

I believe that unless the world's population wants to revert to living in caves like a massive Taliban commune, then we need to make the best choices we can within a market driven economy where innovation and enterprise are valued and rewarded.

I believe in full care for the elderly and the genuinely infirm, but the lazy should be left to starve until they feel sufficiently motivated to move their fat arses

I believe in God because it's my right to do so and the alternative is plain boring; and I believe that the socialist ideal you pursue has never existed ever and never will - on earth (just to keep it spiritual)

Originally posted by rwingett
Man, you're a tough customer. What do you expect me to do? Throw Molotov cocktails through bank windows, or something? OK, here's my revolutionary resume:

As people who follow my posts already know, I never tire of regaling them about my time at East Wind Community. That's right, I have been to the mountaintop. I have seen the promised land. And it lies eve I have made some positive changes, and will continue to make more as I go.

i think what you have done is very admirable. When we are young we have so many
ideals, yet when we mature we realise that short of armed insurrection the best that
we can do is within our particular personal sphere of influence, and that is a
recognition of our limitations which is akin to modesty. Its clear to see that the
system in which we live is riddled with corruption and advocates greed and
exploitation, to the detriment of billions of people. It is also apparent to me at
least, that a political solution will not manifest itself and thus I am resigned to
advocating a theocracy, that is a heavenly government outside the sphere of
human corruption and greed. This is not a get out clause nor an excuse for lack of
activity, for there is much we can do within ourselves and with respect to helping
others. It seems to me rwingett that we have similar ideals, only we advocate
differing solutions while doing what we can within the sphere of our influence. The
Bible adage remains true though,

(Ecclesiastes 8:9) . . .All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to
every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has
dominated man to his injury.