Originally posted by josephwIrrelevent? Are you serious? This is seriously important to know and understand. How can you blow that off? Either he'll be on earth or he'll be in heaven. That's not important? Do you not understand the implcations of this?
Acts 1:11 - [b]Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Whether or not you will find a verse in the Bible that states that "Jesus will be ruling this Kingdom from earth", is irrelevant.
Jesus is returning to the earth and will rule for a thousand years.[/b]
Originally posted by josephwIf this is so, then we must take the message of Ephesians 2 seriously. That being that our place is beside Christ...in heaven
Acts 1:11 - [b]Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Whether or not you will find a verse in the Bible that states that "Jesus will be ruling this Kingdom from earth", is irrelevant.
Jesus is returning to the earth and will rule for a thousand years.[/b]
Originally posted by galveston75Other Appearances Luke 24 36-39 NASB Version from www.biblegateway.com
Who were the men of Galilee?
Who were the two men in white clothing?
What manner of being was Jesus at "this time" that the two men said they would see Jesus later? Was he flesh and blood or a spirit
Why use the expression "manner" in their statement?
Let me know what you come up with?
36While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be to you."
37But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit.
38And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have
Verse 39 says that the risen Christ had flesh and bone explain that G-75? I know that you think Christ was only a spirit being but this contradicts that to the core!!
Stop twisting what is written and accept the majesty and mystery of what God is revealing in scripture.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71I'm speaking of and asking questions of this specific scripture Manny where Jesus was seen going to heaven. Answer those questions first and stop avoiding the subject. What is described in this scripture? If you can't explain it then just say I can't.
Other Appearances Luke 24 36-39 NASB Version from www.biblegateway.com
36While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be to you."
37But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit.
38And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? ...[text shortened]... written and accept the majesty and mystery of what God is revealing in scripture.
Manny
Originally posted by galveston75Yes......Jesus became flesh and bone in the incarnation. The God-Man or Theoathropos
I'm speaking of and asking questions of this specific scripture Manny where Jesus was seen going to heaven. Answer those questions first and stop avoiding the subject. What is described in this scripture? If you can't explain it then just say I can't.
Theo=God Anthropos=Man. So even if you deny the trinity you can't deny that Jesus was of flesh and bone. Even after the resurrection. The story of Thomas after the resurrection and Jesus told him to place is hands in his wounds.
This same Jesus went into heaven as you can see in the books of Acts. This is relevant to you OP which is the Book of Acts.
So either we have a contradiction or we don't understand something.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71Yes you are correct in that Jesus appeared to be in the flesh as many saw. But as a scripture in Acts brings out Jesus had materialized a body in human form and even one you could touch but he was still a spirit and would continue to be in that form until he ascended to heaven.
Yes......Jesus became flesh and bone in the incarnation. The God-Man or Theoathropos
Theo=God Anthropos=Man. So even if you deny the trinity you can't deny that Jesus was of flesh and bone. Even after the resurrection. The story of Thomas after the resurrection and Jesus told him to place is hands in his wounds.
This same Jesus went into heaven as you ca ...[text shortened]... ok of Acts.
So either we have a contradiction or we don't understand something.
Manny
Acts 10:40, 41: “God raised this One "Jesus Christ" up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”
Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so "only" in the presence of his disciples.
So the importance of seeing this also goes back to the original scripture where only a few saw him ascending to heaven. It was not a large group of humans that saw this but only a few and these few would have been Jesus's closest followers and would have been included in the Little Flock or the 144,000.
Another couple questions is who were these two men in white that asked the question as to why they were looking up?
These no doubt were materialized angels also.
But why were they there?
Why did they make the comment that "you would see him again in the "Manner" you see him leaving?"
They were there because up till that time a few of the Apostles were still confused as to wether Jesus was going to come back in the flesh and rule from the earth in person.
But their answer clearified this issue. When the last saw Jesus he was a spirit and had been for the last 40 days.
A questions for you.....If Jesus was going to rule the Kingdom from earth, why did he leave then and go to heaven? He was already here right? Why not just start then? Did he not have the power to just start the whole precess then?
Up until the day of Jesus’ ascension it appears that the disciples still thought in terms of an earthly kingdom ruled by him, as is seen by their statement at Acts 1:6. By beginning his ascension in a visible way and allowing his disciples to witness the initial portion of it, Jesus thus made obvious to them that his Kingdom was heavenly and that, different from David who “did not ascend to the heavens,” Jesus’ position from then onward would be at ‘God’s right hand,’ as Peter boldly testified on the day of Pentecost.—Ac 2:32-36.
Such action likewise should call to their mind Jesus’ many previous statements pointing to such a heavenly position and help his disciples to understand these. He had shocked some by saying: “What, therefore, if you should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?” (Joh 6:62); and he told the Jews: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above.” (Joh 8:23) On the night of his final meeting with his apostles, he told them he was ‘going his way to the Father to prepare a place for them’ (Joh 14:2, 28); while among them on his last night of life as a human, he reported to his Father that he had ‘finished the work on earth’ assigned to him and prayed, saying: “Glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was,” saying also, “I am coming to you.” (Joh 17:4, 5, 11) When arrested, he gave similar indication before the Sanhedrin. (Mt 26:64) After his resurrection he told Mary Magdalene: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (Joh 20:17) Yet, despite all of this, it is evident that the significance of these statements was brought home to the disciples only at the occasion of the ascension. Later, Stephen was given a vision of Jesus at God’s right hand (Ac 7:55, 56), and Paul experienced the effect of Jesus’ heavenly glory.—Ac 9:3-5.
While Jesus began his ascent in a physical form, thus being visible to his watching disciples, there is no basis for assuming that he continued to retain a material form after the cloud interposed itself. The apostle Peter states that Jesus died in the flesh but was resurrected “in the spirit.” (1Pe 3:18) Paul declares the rule that “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1Co 15:50; compare also Jesus’ statement at Joh 12:23, 24 with 1Co 15:35-45.) Paul likens Jesus’ ascent to God’s presence in the heavens to the entry of the high priest into the Most Holy compartment of the tabernacle on the Day of Atonement and specifies that on such occasion the high priest carried only the blood (not the flesh) of the sacrificial victims. (Heb 9:7, 11, 12, 24-26) Paul then compares the curtain, which separated the first compartment from the Most Holy compartment, to Christ’s flesh. The high priest in passing into the Most Holy, into God’s typical presence, did not carry the curtain with him but passed through that barrier and beyond it, so that it was behind him. Thus, Paul states that “we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh.”—Heb 9:3, 24; 10:10, 19, 20; compare Joh 6:51; Heb 6:19, 20.
Jesus’ ascension to heaven to present the ransoming value of his lifeblood to Jehovah inaugurated “a new and living way” of approach to God in prayer. That it also opened the way to heavenly life harmonizes with Jesus’ own statement to the effect that, prior thereto, “no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (Joh 3:13) Thus, neither Enoch nor Elijah inaugurated this way, any more than David had. (Ge 5:24; 2Ki 2:11; Ac 2:34) As Paul states: “The holy spirit makes it plain that the way into the holy place had not yet been made manifest while the first tent was standing.”—Heb 9:8; see ELIJAH No. 1; ENOCH No. 2.
Some raise objections to the account of the ascension, saying that it conveys the primitive concept that heaven is “up” from the earth, thus manifesting ignorance of the structure of the universe and of the earth’s rotation. However, to satisfy such critics would, in effect, require the virtual elimination of the words “up,” “above,” and so forth, from human language. Even in this space age, we still read of astronauts making an “ascent” to a “184-mile-high orbit” above the earth (The New York Times, June 19, 1983), whereas we know that technically they moved out or away from the earth’s surface that distance. Interestingly, the account of the angelic delegation that chorused the announcement of Jesus’ birth reports that, when their mission was completed, “the angels . . . departed from them into heaven.” (Lu 2:15; compare Ac 12:10.) Thus Jesus’ ascension, while beginning with an upward movement, from the viewpoint of his disciples, may have thereafter taken any direction required to bring him into his Father’s heavenly presence. It was an ascension not only as to direction but, more important, as to the sphere of activity and level of existence in the spirit realm and in the lofty presence of the Most High God, a realm not governed by human dimensions or directions.—Compare Heb 2:7, 9.
Jesus’ ascension to the heavenly realm was essential for several reasons or purposes. He had stated that it was necessary for him to ‘go his way’ in order that he might send God’s holy spirit as helper to his disciples. (Joh 16:7-14) The outpouring of that spirit by Jesus on the day of Pentecost was to the disciples an evident demonstration of the fact of Jesus’ having reached God’s presence and that he had presented the value of his ransom sacrifice to Him. (Ac 2:33, 38) This presentation of the value of his lifeblood also made such ascension vital, for it was not to be made on earth, in the Most Holy of the temple in Jerusalem, but only in “heaven itself . . . before the person of God.” (Heb 9:24) It was also made necessary by Jesus’ being appointed and glorified as the “great high priest who has passed through the heavens.” (Heb 4:14; 5:1-6) Paul explains that “if, now, he were upon earth, he would not be a priest,” but that, having “sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,” Jesus has now “obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant.” (Heb 8:1-6) Because of this, Christians subject to inherited sin are comforted in knowing they “have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one.”—1Jo 2:1; Ro 8:34; Heb 7:25.
Finally, the ascension was necessary for Jesus’ administration of the Kingdom to which he became heir, with “angels and authorities and powers . . . made subject to him.” (1Pe 3:22; Php 2:6-11; 1Co 15:25; Heb 10:12, 13; compare Da 7:14.) Having “conquered the world” (Joh 16:33), Jesus took part in fulfilling the prophecy at Psalm 68:18, ‘ascending on high and carrying away captives,’ the significance of which Paul explains at Ephesians 4:8-12.
Originally posted by galveston75Because God in his forbearance wanted to reconcile the world to Himself and in this He has waited 2000 years but Christ will come again. You however have the doctrine of the Gnostics that Christ was not flesh or came in the flesh. He was born of a women (Virgin birth) and Lastly Christ own words were "You see that I have flesh and bone" You deny Christ.
Yes you are correct in that Jesus appeared to be in the flesh as many saw. But as a scripture in Acts brings out Jesus had materialized a body in human form and even one you could touch but he was still a spirit and would continue to be in that form until he ascended to heaven.
Acts 10:40, 41: “God raised this One "Jesus Christ" up on the third day and ...[text shortened]... hy not just start then? Did he not have the power to just start the whole precess then?
39"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have
Luke 24-39 you can't just explain this away. The contrast between spirit and what Christ is comparing himself to is there in the verse.
Manny
Originally posted by duecer==================================
Most conversions happened in public or at local synagogues, though some worship and teaching happened at homes, the majority did not. How is that the same or different than today? and, What are the merits of a public ministry over a house to house ministry (and vice versa)?
discuss
Most conversions happened in public or at local synagogues, though some worship and teaching happened at homes, the majority did not. How is that the same or different than today? and, What are the merits of a public ministry over a house to house ministry (and vice versa)?
=========================================
Both are needed. But especially meeting from house to house. Every Christian disciple should have perfect freedom to have a gathering for edification in thier home.
The tendency of some is to regard the home as not legitimate for a Christian gathering. But this is also changing in many places too as "cell groups" have proved a successful means of encrease.
Having meetings in various houses should be encouraged.
What is a problem is to take it too far that every house is a church. That is not what was practiced in Jerusalem. In the book of Acts the church in Jerusalem is always written in the singular. So regardless of the fact that there were many meetings in homes, they still were kept under the vision that there was only one city wide church in Jerusalem and not churches (plural) in Jerusalem.
Many home meetings, many house meetings, for prayer and ministry and serving and functioning should be encouraged. But the city should have one church, though many meeting places.
In addition to this a larger facility for public gatherings is also helpful. There is no legality. And a city wide church may have more than one public meeting place in addition to smaller gatherings in homes.
The apostles appointed elders and overseers according to cities. So the overseeing responsible elders should take the city as the boundary of thier responsibility.
There seems to be no limit on how many overseers may be appointed. As many as are necessary is the rule. But there should always be a plurality. There should not be only ONE pastor. There should be a plural TEAM. At least TWO should serve together in coordination.
If the locality is larger, many more may be necessary. The key is that they are in coordination and fellowship with one accord and follow the teaching of the apostles.
Originally posted by menace71Manny...your not listening and your putting words in my mouth. Yes before his death Jesus was as much human as you and me are. Completely flesh, bone and blood. I never said he wasn't. I said...""""after he was resurrected"""" he was a spirit that did materialize from time to time so his followers could see that he had been resurrected and believe that fact....
Because God in his forbearance wanted to reconcile the world to Himself and in this He has waited 2000 years but Christ will come again. You however have the doctrine of the Gnostics that Christ was not flesh or came in the flesh. He was born of a women (Virgin birth) and Lastly Christ own words were "You see that I have flesh and bone" You deny Christ.
...[text shortened]... st between spirit and what Christ is comparing himself to is there in the verse.
Manny
The time after he was resurrected he was a spirit and never a human with flesh and bone as we are. He could not be flesh and blood again because he had already given that as a sacrifice. Do you understand that? And he can never be flesh and blood again because of that same fact. He is a spirit and is now in his place as our King and never will have the need to come back to earth.
Originally posted by galveston75This is after the resurrection G-75 and verse 39 was Christ saying to his followers see and touch and feel because a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see that I have. Christ words not Manny's
Manny...your not listening and your putting words in my mouth. Yes before his death Jesus was as much human as you and me are. Completely flesh, bone and blood. I never said he wasn't. I said...""""after he was resurrected"""" he was a spirit that did materialize from time to time so his followers could see that he had been resurrected and believe that f ...[text shortened]... and is now in his place as our King and never will have the need to come back to earth.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71Do you not understand that spirit beings can materialize and feel real to anyone touching them? They can eat, drink, walk, talk, etc. Do you know this? Let me know and I'll message you later....
This is after the resurrection G-75 and verse 39 was Christ saying to his followers see and touch and feel because a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see that I have. Christ words not Manny's
Manny
Originally posted by menace71If this is what your asking, he had to show that he had been resurrected. And as stubborn as humans can be he had to have flesh for ones to touch in order to believe.
Then what need is there for Christ to contrast flesh with spirit ?
Manny
The scripture at:
1 Peter 3:18 (New International Version, ©2010)
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
This scripture clearly says he was made alive in a spirit form, not of flesh as he was before his death.
This is also discussed at 1Cor 15: 35-53 where it is refering to the ones resurrected that will go to heaven. The same fact is stated that once resurrected then the flesh one once had is now gone.
And if you go to: John 20:26 (New International Version, ©2010)
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
Is this not showing that Jesus had to be a spirit to appear suddenly into a locked room? He had to be but then materialized to be seen.