The Bible vs Your Heart/Head

Originally posted by whodey
Granted, the movie never led one to believe that either one was in the least bit religious. However, the story was based upon a true story and I have my suspicions that the wife had religious roots in real life that was not revealed in the movie.. Nevertheless, I say that she demonstrated many Christian like attributes and that in the end love prevailed aga ...[text shortened]... butes and reap the rewards of that behavior as well. I have observed both ends of the spectrum.

R...e...a...c...h...i...n...g!

All it takes is one example of selfless love by a non-christian to blow the whole 'supernatural influence required' theory to pieces.

Edit: Can an unbeliever's good deeds or favorable attributes properly be called 'christian-like'? Sounds like you wish to co-opt the good deeds of people of other beliefs to enhance your own faith's image.

Originally posted by whodey
One of the reasons I brought up the story about David and Bathsheeba was to illustrate the fact that their initial relationship was viewed as adultery. In fact, they both payed a heavy price for their unholy union with the death of their new born son. After all, in reality they both were subject to death via Mosaic law but were spared. However, since David ...[text shortened]... later blessed their union with the birth of Solomon.

God has been known to forgive you know.

3) was a response to your statement that God doesn't prohibit divorce. Didn't have much to do with the story of David and Bathsheba.

Do you think it was just for God to abort King David's child? I wonder what Pro-Lifers make of this verse.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
R...e...a...c...h...i...n...g!

All it takes is one example of selfless love by a non-christian to blow the whole 'supernatural influence required' theory to pieces.

Edit: Can an unbeliever's good deeds or favorable attributes properly be called 'christian-like'? Sounds like you wish to co-opt the good deeds of people of other beliefs to enhance your own faith's image.

When I say Christian like attributes I am referring to a passage in Galations that talks about fruits of the spirit which are love, joy, peace, patience etc. I think you would agree that at times even unbelievers have these attributes. However, as a believer and follower of Christ as one matures in the faith these attributes become a sign that one is a true believer and follower of Christ.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
3) was a response to your statement that God doesn't prohibit divorce. Didn't have much to do with the story of David and Bathsheba.

Do you think it was just for God to abort King David's child? I wonder what Pro-Lifers make of this verse.

Here is the scripture I spoke about in Matthew 19:8. "He (Jesus) said unto them, 'Moses becuase of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives; but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committs adultery; and whoso marrieth her which is put away does commit adultery."

In reference to my story about David and Bathsheba we can see this occurred. However, after David had repented of his adultery and later married Bathsheba God blessed the union. Just because a sin has been committed does not mean God will stand in judgement over them in a spirit of condemnation for all eternity. Despite popular misconception, God wants to forgive us. He merely wants us to feel the compulsion to ask for forgiveness and turn from our sinful ways. Is it so much to ask?

As far as the judgement handed down to David for his sins I would say that murder was also one of his sins as well as adultery. You may think the judgements passed down on him are severe but I would say that David escaped a far worse fate by escaping being stoned to death. Had David and Bathsheba been stoned to death for adultery it would have been considered just under Mosaic law. However, because David repented whole heartidly after the event God showed him mercy despite his later troubles. As it turned out David and Bathsheba later had Solomon as a child and we all know the legend surrounding him. If you think you can sin and not reap what you sow you are deluded, God will not be mocked. We will pay a price which ultimatly will cause us to die physically. However, there is also grace and forgiveness which can eliminate the eternal consequences of our sin. This is all I am saying. For example, I choose not to condemn Visted but rather reach out to him and say that God can forgive past mistakes and move on and have God bless his union with his new wife as happened with David and Bathsheba.

Originally posted by whodey
When I say Christian like attributes I am referring to a passage in Galations that talks about fruits of the spirit which are love, joy, peace, patience etc. I think you would agree that at times even unbelievers have these attributes. However, as a believer and follower of Christ as one matures in the faith these attributes become a sign that one is a true believer and follower of Christ.

I agree that non-christians can have love, joy, peace, patience, etc. This is precisely my point. Those attributes should not be called 'christian' attributes, because people of many different beliefs have them, and almost all humans are capable of having them, if they choose. The label 'christian' is too narrow.

Originally posted by whodey
Here is the scripture I spoke about in Matthew 19:8. "He (Jesus) said unto them, 'Moses becuase of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives; but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committs adultery; and whoso marrieth her which i move on and have God bless his union with his new wife as happened with David and Bathsheba.

The example of David and Bathsheba is a poor one for the topic of divorce. David indirectly murdered her husband, and forced her to become his wife. Those are criminal acts; divorce is not.

I disagree strongly that divorce is necessarily a 'mistake'. I think it's actually the morally correct thing to do in certain instances. From what I have heard about Vistesd's case, I believe he made the right decision.

I can't speak for Vistesd, but I'd personally feel insulted if I was compared to a murderer like David.

Originally posted by kirksey957
To people of faith who use the Bible as The guiding influence in your life: Have there been experiences in your own life that contradict what you read in the Bible?

Let me give an example. I knew a man once who had had a number of affairs which directly go against the commandment not to commit adultery. Yet, he found his wife incredibly oppressive a ...[text shortened]... sadistic. The only time he really felt blessed and joyful about life was screwing other women.

How does this man's experiences contradict what's said in the Bible? Where does the Bible say that following the commandments lead to earthly joy and "feeling blessed"?

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
The example of David and Bathsheba is a poor one for the topic of divorce. David indirectly murdered her husband, and forced her to become his wife. Those are criminal acts; divorce is not.

I disagree strongly that divorce is necessarily a 'mistake'. I think it's actually the morally correct thing to do in certain instances. From what I have heard for Vistesd, but I'd personally feel insulted if I was compared to a murderer like David.

I do not think the story of David and Bathsheba is a poor example of divorce. After all, we are talking about couples getting married after being married to someone else. Granted, Bathsheba was then a widow after David killed her husband off, however, we are still talking about an adulterous affair that later remarried. Is the message then that if you kill off the former spouse God will then later bless your union in the future? May it never be said! The truth of the matter is that if we repent of past sins God will hear and forgive. That does not mean, however, that there are no penalties to pay in the process as David found out. In many ways his pain was worse than if he had been stoned for his offenses. The sad truth of the matter is that sin is destructive and deadly. It effects those who are sinners as well as those who are innocent. The good news, however, is that God can forgive and let us move on with our lives if we ask him to do so. This is my hope for Visted. I was in no way trying to compare him to a murderer. I was merely pointing out that God can bless a relationship that started out as an adulterous one as long as those responsible parties repent of their respective sins and follow after God. This should contradict much of the condemnation many churches impose upon people caught in similar situations.

To sum up, through Christ there is no condemnation because he payed the price for our sins. Without Christ we are condemned already because we are sinners and must then pay for our sins. John 3:17

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Where does the Bible say that following the commandments lead to earthly joy and "feeling blessed"?

All through the Torah!

In Judaism neither joy nor suffering are strictly “spiritualized.” Judaism does not separate spirit or soul and body. And joy is far more closely related to holiness than is suffering. The just (tzaddikim) are not expected to suffer. The "suffering servant" (from Isaiah) is not an ideal. Suffering happens—it is not sought, and certainly not sought in order to “feel” righteous.

The Hebrew term generally translated as “repentance” is not quite the same as the Greek, and is not treated quite the same in Judaism as Christianity. The word is teshuvah, and it basically means return—returning to the path. It is not a single act, nor a strictly "spiritual" one. And in return there is the promise of gladness and blessing.

BTW, as you know, Shabbos is to be observed with joy—even mourners are forbidden to mourn on Shabbos.

I quit counting in my search at 384, but words such as blessing, joy, gladness, rejoicing, etc. far, far outweigh words such a suffering, pain, condemnation (87).

The following are just a taste—
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Psalm 16: 6 The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; I have a goodly heritage. 7 I bless YHVH who gives me counsel; in the night also my heart instructs me. 8 I keep YHVH always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my soul rejoices; my body also rests secure. 10 For you do not give me up to Sheol, or let your faithful one see the Pit. 11 You show me the path of life. In your presence there is fullness of joy; in your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that YHVH is good; happy are those who take refuge in him.

Psalm 94:12 Happy are those whom you instruct, O LORD, and whom you teach out of your law,

Psalm 100:2 Serve YHVH with gladness; come into his presence with singing.

Psalm 128:1 Happy is everyone who reveres YHVH, who walks in his ways. 2 You shall eat the fruit of the labor of your hands; you shall be happy, and it shall go well with you. 3 Your wife will be like a fruitful vine within your house; your children will be like olive shoots around your table. 4 Thus shall the man be blessed who reveres YHVH. 5 YHVH bless you from Zion. May you see the prosperity of Jerusalem all the days of your life. 6 May you see your children's children. Peace be upon Israel!

Proverbs 29:18 Where there is no prophecy, the people cast off restraint, but happy are those who keep the law.

Isaiah 56:1 Thus says YHVH: Maintain justice, and do what is right, for soon my salvation will come, and my deliverance be revealed. 2 Happy is the mortal who does this, the one who holds it fast, who keeps the sabbath, not profaning it, and refrains from doing any evil.

Deuteronomy 28:1 If you will only obey YHVH your God, by diligently observing all his commandments that I am commanding you today, YHVH your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth 2 all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey YHVH your God: 3 Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. 4 Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb, the fruit of your ground, and the fruit of your livestock, both the increase of your cattle and the issue of your flock. 5 Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 6 Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.

Joel 2:19 In response to his people YHVH said: I am sending you grain, wine, and oil, and you will be satisfied; and I will no more make you a mockery among the nations. 20 I will remove the northern army far from you, and drive it into a parched and desolate land, its front into the eastern sea, and its rear into the western sea; its stench and foul smell will rise up. Surely he has done great things! 21 Do not fear, O soil; be glad and rejoice, for YHVH has done great things! 22 Do not fear, you animals of the field, for the pastures of the wilderness are green; the tree bears its fruit, the fig tree and vine give their full yield. 23 O children of Zion, be glad and rejoice in YHVH your God; for he has given the early rain for your vindication, he has poured down for you abundant rain, the early and the later rain, as before. 24 The threshing floors shall be full of grain, the vats shall overflow with wine and oil. 25 I will repay you for the years that the swarming locust has eaten, the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter, my great army, which I sent against you. 26 You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, and praise the name of YHVH your God, who has dealt wondrously with you. And my people shall never again be put to shame.