The Agenda

@secondson said
Is it a "work" to keep the commandments? Or is that simply an act of obedience without reward?

Or is a "work" something beyond mere obedience that has a reward attached to it?

Either way grace is unmerited favor, which cannot be earned, like eternal life, which is not a reward, it is a gift of God's grace.

Rewards for good works, and the gift of God's grace, are mutually exclusive concepts. To confuse the two would be like mixing water and oil.

You're sounding evasive. The two questions I have asked could scarcely be simpler nor any more fundamental.

@fmf said
Does to "turn to Christ" mean there is an obligation to obey his commandments and do 'good works'?

We went over that thing about "obligation" before remember?

It's not that I think the term is too far out of line, it's just that I think the term infers an obedience-or-else mindset.

I think one obeys out of a sense of gratitude and love for the savior more than anything else.

@secondson said
We went over that thing about "obligation" before remember?

It's not that I think the term is too far out of line, it's just that I think the term infers an obedience-or-else mindset.

I think one obeys out of a sense of gratitude and love for the savior more than anything else.

Either there is an obligation to obey Christ's commandments and do 'good works' or there isn't. The way you wriggle when you are asked about it suggests strongly that you believe 'there isn't' but part of you knows that your religious doctrine will sound vapid if you just come out and say it.

@secondson said
We went over that thing about "obligation" before remember?

It's not that I think the term is too far out of line, it's just that I think the term infers an obedience-or-else mindset.

I think one obeys out of a sense of gratitude and love for the savior more than anything else.

Is there an obligation for Christians not to have "dead faith"?

@fmf said
You're sounding evasive. The two questions I have asked could scarcely be simpler nor any more fundamental.

What's the matter? Was my answer too complicated for you?

You asked, "What happens - with regard to one's "eternal life" - if there are no "works"?"

Do you believe in "eternal life"? Of course not, but that doesn't mean you can't understand what it means.

How long is eternal? If one who has trusted in Christ for salvation, that one has eternal life. Whether they are a perfect follower and never makes any mistakes is irrelevant with regards to eternal life.

One either has it or one doesn't.

Performance has nothing to do with the acquisition of eternal life. Eternal life comes by grace through faith.

Performance is relative to rewards. A biblical concept lost on the legalistic mind.

@secondson said
Was my answer too complicated for you?

No. I find you evasive and rather defensive.

@secondson said
You asked, "What happens - with regard to one's "eternal life" - if there are no "works"?"

I did. And you are dodging it.

@fmf said
Either there is an obligation to obey Christ's commandments and do 'good works' or there isn't. The way you wriggle when you are asked about it suggests strongly that you believe 'there isn't' but part of you knows that your religious doctrine will sound vapid if you just come out and say it.

I told you bluntly that the Christian motive for obedience is out of love, not obligation.

If you can't handle that answer, then that's too bad.

Fact is, it's you that's trying to "wriggle" his way around it by inserting an accusation, obviously hoping to derail rational discourse.

@secondson said
Performance has nothing to do with the acquisition of eternal life. Eternal life comes by grace through faith.

Isn't "dead faith" a lack of performance?

@secondson said
I told you bluntly that the Christian motive for obedience is out of love, not obligation.

I haven't used the word "motive". Is there an obligation to obey Jesus' commandments and do good works, yes or no?

@secondson said
If you can't handle that answer, then that's too bad.

Can one have "eternal life" if one does no "good works"?

@fmf said
No. I find you evasive and rather defensive.

No. That's on you.

Try to be more consistent. Why don't you call out Rajk and see if he has a rebuttal against the reply to his post you impatiently called me out to answer.

@secondson said
How long is eternal? If one who has trusted in Christ for salvation, that one has eternal life. Whether they are a perfect follower and never makes any mistakes is irrelevant with regards to eternal life.

I haven't asked you about whether someone is "perfect" and I haven't mentioned people making "mistakes". I am asking you about what Christians have to do in order to avoid "dead faith".

@FMF

You're becoming shrill and obfuscatory now don't you know?

Of course you do.

@secondson said
Try to be more consistent. Why don't you call out Rajk and see if he has a rebuttal against the reply to his post you impatiently called me out to answer.

This is deflection.

The questions - simple, direct, consistent ones - that you are dancing around are still there.