25 Oct 13
Originally posted by Pianoman1You have to believe the evidence means what you think it does, you
Faith is a wonderful thing, Kelly. Sometimes I wish I had the ability to just have faith - it would save me so much soul-searching! But never forget that for all the joy, wonder, strength of belief etc that faith gives you, it can never trump evidence. By all means have faith, have religious convictions if you have to, but always remember that God just mig ...[text shortened]... to any of these is "yes" then please just allow the possibility of non God generated evolution.
cannot get away from walking in your faith. The thing about evidence
in a trial is that it isn't there just please one side of a case, everyone
can discuss what it means and why it matters. I'm not concern about
God not being real, I didn't become a Christain until I was 25, I was not
raised one. What happened to me changed my life forever, and a simple
acknowledgement of nothing but doctrine would not have caused me to
turn my life around.
Kelly
25 Oct 13
1 edit
Originally posted by Pianoman1No, you've got it wrong: this is a Last Thursday style version of creation.
In the Omphalos Hypothesis upon which Thursdayism is based, the universe was created fully formed. Adam and Eve were born with no navels, trees came into being in the Garden of Eden with no age rings, but were animals afraid of fire? If so, why?
The trees were created, fully formed with tree rings as if they had been growing there for years. Adam and Eve were created fully formed and adult, with navels, as if they had been born and grown naturally, animals were created, fully grown, with a fear of fire as if they had learned it during their (non-existant) lives.
Oh, and now that RJ has finally decided to join in, I find it very helpful to keep in mind the adage "Don't feed the troll".
--- Penguin
25 Oct 13
Originally posted by KellyJayyou missed the point. if you dismiss the fact that measurements place stars from 4 light years away to millions and claim that the world was created 6000 years ago with "light already on route" then you really can't say it wasn't created last thursday with "light already on route"
I do not believe creationism is a lie, you may feel it is not correct, but I on
the other hand believe God created the universe and everything in it.
Kelly
Originally posted by ZahlanziStarlight and the Age of the Universe
you missed the point. if you dismiss the fact that measurements place stars from 4 light years away to millions and claim that the world was created 6000 years ago with "light already on route" then you really can't say it wasn't created last thursday with "light already on route"
Anti-creationists often claim that starlight from millions of light years away demonstrates that the Biblical timescale of 6,000 years is in error, as insufficient time has passed for the light from distant stars to reach Earth. Creationists respond in part by pointing out that the popular Big Bang theory has its own star light-travel time problem (the horizon problem), citing the work of Dr. Charles W. Misner.
Secondly, creationists have proposed a number of explanations for the objection, and although none are yet certain, they claim that it shows that the critics' claims that it cannot be explained is unfounded.
Setterfield's decay of the speed of light
One early explanation was that of creationist Barry Setterfield, who proposed that the speed of light was faster in the past. Critics objected to Setterfield's proposal, including on the grounds that the constancy of the speed of light is one of science's most fundamental laws. Yet in 1999, John Webb, a professor at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia, and his colleagues reported astronomical observations suggesting that the value of the fine-structure constant (which is related to the speed of light) may have changed (although the size of the change was much smaller than proposed by Setterfield). They subsequently published this in 2001 in Physical Review Letters. However, other problems with the proposal has led most creationists to abandon the idea.
Russell Humphreys's model
Creationary physicist Dr. Russell Humphreys proposed a model based on Einstein's law of relativity (as the Big Bang model is), but with a different starting assumption, a bounded universe. Humphreys's model proposes that God created the universe much smaller than it is now, then expanded it, quoting the Bible saying that God "stretched out the heavens". In such a scenario, time would pass at different rates on Earth and in outer parts of the universe, so that while 6,000 years went by on Earth, billions of years passed on the outer edge of the universe. This model is also based on the Genesis account recording the days of creation according to time on Earth, rather than elsewhere.
However, this theory is not without problems. The evidence contradicts Humphrey's assumption that the earth is in a large gravity well. If the earth were in such a gravity well, light from distant galaxies should be blue-shifted. Instead, it is red-shifted. Also, gravitational time dilation, if it existed on such a large scale, should be easily observable. On the contrary, we observe (from the periods of Cepheid variable stars, from orbital rates of binary stars, from supernova extinction rates, from light frequencies, etc.) that such time dilation is minor. It is thought that there is some time dilation corresponding with Hubble's law (i.e., further objects have greater red shifts), but this is due to the well-understood expansion of the universe, and it is not nearly extreme enough to fit more than ten billion years into less than 10,000.
John Hartnett's model
Young earth creationist scientist Dr. John Hartnett proposes a model similar to Humphreys, wherein the Earth was trapped in a time-dilation field caused by extremely strong gravitation during the first few days of creation, from Earth's point of view, while billions of years passed for the rest of the universe. He attributes the field, its removal and the continued balance in our solar system (after the field was removed) to divine intervention. Whilst Humphreys' model has time dilation caused only by gravity (per Einstein's General Theory of Relativity), Hartnett's model also takes into account time dilation caused by motion (God's expansion of the universe) (per Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity).
http://www.conservapedia.com/Young_Earth_Creationism
Starlight and The Age of the Universe
Gravitational Time Dilation & Distant Starlight
Starlight and the Young Earth by Dr. Charles Jackson
Distant Starlight - Creationist Solutions
The Instructor
25 Oct 13
Originally posted by ZahlanziThe creation story has God creating the stars and they are seen here, so
you missed the point. if you dismiss the fact that measurements place stars from 4 light years away to millions and claim that the world was created 6000 years ago with "light already on route" then you really can't say it wasn't created last thursday with "light already on route"
yes they were created for a purpose and the light in route was made at
the same time the stars were made. Read it as its written.
Kelly
25 Oct 13
Originally posted by KellyJayThe history of a star is written in its light. If we see a star that is 100,000 light years away explode, then according to you that star never existed and we saw a non-existent star explode in a non-existent past.
The creation story has God creating the stars and they are seen here, so
yes they were created for a purpose and the light in route was made at
the same time the stars were made. Read it as its written.
Kelly
You simply cannot claim that light was created enroute whilst simultaneously claiming that there is no fake history.
25 Oct 13
Originally posted by SwissGambitWin or lose will not depend on who wins an argument, the beginning does
Yeah, I know. I didn't say they were going to give up. I just said they weren't going to win.
one thing and one thing only, which is set the stage for what we see today.
Science does not have any idea NONE on the how and why, everything
began so it cannot tell us anything about where this place is heading. It
can look around and see what we all see today, but without knowledge on
the beginning it is simply a best guess.
If God started something and is doing something in our lives today, and
does indeed plan on making a short work of the place, well that pretty much
causes everyone who lives in their sins a loser.
Kelly
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26 Oct 13
This whole thread is stupid. It is Christians full of holy spirit arguing with the walking dead!
Eph 2:1-3
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
NKJV
Like I said, "The walking dead"...
Look, if you put all the resources man has all together, the brightest minds, scientist, tools, everything....they could still not make a blade of grass.
Sure, they might make something that looks like grass, even feels like grass, but it is as dead as they are. It will not grow.
If when man got to the moon, they found a car, or a house there, and evolutionist would say, "oh my, it must have "evolved""!
How dumb can people be? God's creation is all around us, you can look up and see the stars, the constellations, which by the way are mentioned in the bible, all kinds of evidence of very complex, well thought out wonders!
The earth is tilted on it's axis at just the right degree, rotates and revolves around the sun at precise timing to cause days and nights, etc.
You really, really have to be an arrogant idiot, to ignore God's glory and his goodness to all.
If you can believe in evolution, there is no God, then you could believe anything.
By the way, this wrist watch I am wearing evolved right on my wrist.
It took a few years, but good golly, it did!
Originally posted by checkbaiterQuoting from a work of fiction written by some wandering desert tribesman does not really add any weight to this scientific discussion! Be that as it may, I must take exception to the grandiose arrogance of some of your staggering assertions.
This whole thread is stupid. It is Christians full of holy spirit arguing with the walking dead!
[b]Eph 2:1-3
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among wh ...[text shortened]... rist watch I am wearing evolved right on my wrist.
It took a few years, but good golly, it did!
" How dumb can people be? God's creation is all around us, you can look up and see the stars, the constellations, which by the way are mentioned in the bible, all kinds of evidence of very complex, well thought out wonders!
The earth is tilted on it's (sic - should be its)axis at just the right degree, rotates and revolves around the sun at precise timing to cause days and nights, etc.
You really, really have to be an arrogant idiot, to ignore God's glory and his goodness to all."
Do you know something I don't? Are you privy to the inner circle of His advisers? Where does it say He created all this stuff? " You really have to be an arrogant idiot to ignore" nature's glory and the beauty of evolution.
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26 Oct 13
Originally posted by Pianoman1So, are you awed by my wrist watch?
Quoting from a work of fiction written by some wandering desert tribesman does not really add any weight to this scientific discussion! Be that as it may, I must take exception to the grandiose arrogance of some of your staggering assertions.
[b]" How dumb can people be? God's creation is all around us, you can look up and see the stars, the constellati ...[text shortened]... " You really have to be an arrogant idiot to ignore" nature's glory and the beauty of evolution.
Originally posted by checkbaiterHow many planets are there in the universe?
This whole thread is stupid. It is Christians full of holy spirit arguing with the walking dead!
[b]Eph 2:1-3
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among wh ...[text shortened]... rist watch I am wearing evolved right on my wrist.
It took a few years, but good golly, it did!
Roughly what do you think the odds are that any one of these could be 'tilted on its axis to just the right degree' just through random chance? A billion to one? A hundred billion to one?
From the above answers, how many planets in the universe would be 'tilted on their axis to just the right degree' just through random chance?
Originally posted by checkbaiterGenesis says the moon is a light.
This whole thread is stupid. It is Christians full of holy spirit arguing with the walking dead!
[b]Eph 2:1-3
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among wh ...[text shortened]... rist watch I am wearing evolved right on my wrist.
It took a few years, but good golly, it did!
It isn't.
But exactly what you would expect someone human living at that time to think.
Now we face the unedifying prospect of all those absolute Christian literalists coming to the Bible's defence to interpret it in anything but a literal way.
26 Oct 13
Originally posted by Rank outsiderIt says its a lesser light, that is not saying it produces light on its on, only
Genesis says the moon is a light.
It isn't.
But exactly what you would expect someone human living at that time to think.
Now we face the unedifying prospect of all those absolute Christian literalists coming to the Bible's defence to interpret it in anything but a literal way.
that we get light from it. At the time of the stars creation their purpose was
to shine on the earth. I believe God can do what He wants when He creates
He isn't limited, as some here believe He is.
Kelly
Genesis 1 NASB
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.