Superstition

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
According to theists, God is the Prime Cause. According to present Scientific thought, the Big Bang is the Prime Cause. According to me,assigning prime causation to Big Bang amounts to a false conception of causation,because no scientist has any idea about what happened before the Big Bang. So,we have here two superstitions on either side of the great divide. Take your choice.

I for one don't even believe in universal causation. I believe that current quantum mechanics does not prove the existence of causation for all events.
Further as googlefudge says, you are mistaken about the position of science regarding the big bang.
Lastly, given two superstitions, why would one be forced to take a choice? Are they the only alternatives? Can one not remain agnostic? Does one choose randomly or is there a hint in one direction?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I for one don't even believe in universal causation. I believe that current quantum mechanics does not prove the existence of causation for all events.
Further as googlefudge says, you are mistaken about the position of science regarding the big bang.
Lastly, given two superstitions, why would one be forced to take a choice? Are they the only alternatives? Can one not remain agnostic? Does one choose randomly or is there a hint in one direction?

I note your stand,thanks.But many atheists on this site have claimed that the big bang was the prime cause.
I cannot offer any comments regarding the quantum mechanics not proving the existence of causation for all events as I am unaware of this point.
As regards googlefudge's point, he stated that, by definition, Time starts at the very moment the Big Bang takes place,so there is nothing i.e no Time before the Big Bang.
So nothing exists before the Big Bang. This use of a definition of Big Bang starting simultaneously with the start of Time is a neat little device to avoid the usual infinite regress problem. Otherwise one can ask what happened before the big bang-a bigger bang? And so on.
I agree that even Religion faces the same infinite regress problem of who created God or who designed the designer etc.Hindu theology,using a similar device,says that God created himself/herself/itself.
So the point is that the two systems of human thought have come to an impasse in their respective positions if and only if Logic is our tool to explore these mysteries. But as Hindus say,not all questions have an answer and God is to be realized rather than known.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I note your stand,thanks.But many atheists on this site have claimed that the big bang was the prime cause.
I cannot offer any comments regarding the quantum mechanics not proving the existence of causation for all events as I am unaware of this point.
As regards googlefudge's point, he stated that, by definition, Time starts at the very moment the Big ...[text shortened]... But as Hindus say,not all questions have an answer and God is to be realized rather than known.

ahh, actually no, I would re read my post.

One possibility is that time itself started at the big bang, meaning you can't ask what happened before the big bang.
However this is not the only possibility, and most (i think) cosmologists would currently say that there was a 'before the big bang'... we just don't know what yet.

The standard model does say that time started at the big bang, among other things.
But the standard model, is whilst incredibly useful and accurate... wrong.
Or at least incomplete.
It is however the generally accepted taught model of the world for those not doing physics
at post-grad level. as before then you don't get into the fuzzy frontiers of physics.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I note your stand,thanks.But many atheists on this site have claimed that the big bang was the prime cause.

Please give a reference, because I don't think I have seen that claim in all my years here.

I cannot offer any comments regarding the quantum mechanics not proving the existence of causation for all events as I am unaware of this point.
In quantum mechanics, one cannot:
1. Identify the exact state of a particle (or system of particles)
2. predict the exact future location of a particle (or system of particles)
3. deduce the exact past location of a particle (or system of particles)
Because of 3. one cannot know everything about the past. When a particle is discovered at a given location we don't always know why it is there. We don't know if is there because of some past event, or whether its current location is at least in part totally random (ie uncaused).

So the point is that the two systems of human thought have come to an impasse in their respective positions if and only if Logic is our tool to explore these mysteries.
The error you are making is you think science currently has an answer and that that answer is a 'position' and that it is somehow opposite to that of religion. This is not the case at all.
Science has a number of hypotheses. None of them are necessarily anti-religious.

But as Hindus say,not all questions have an answer and God is to be realized rather than known.
Then don't pretend that it is an answer or that it in any way competes with science.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Please give a reference, because I don't think I have seen that claim in all my years here.

[b]I cannot offer any comments regarding the quantum mechanics not proving the existence of causation for all events as I am unaware of this point.
In quantum mechanics, one cannot:
1. Identify the exact state of a particle (or system of particles)
2. pre ...[text shortened]... [/b]
Then don't pretend that it is an answer or that it in any way competes with science.[/b]

The answers are not forthcoming in respect of two questions,in Hindu theology. These two are what is the denotation of the term God ? What is the connotation of the word God? But the essence of Hinduism is not to seek logically sound answers to these two questions-- although I must hasten to add that many Saints and philosophers have given these a good try at least to describe the denotation of God-- but it is to realize God by direct experience.Many Saints and Philosophers have realized God and have given ample guidance regarding how to realize God,here,in one's sojourn on this earth.
Thus I am not pretending when I say that Hindu Spiritualism has an answer regarding the Realization of God.I have never said that it competes with Science but the two disciplines appear to approach the same problem i.e. knowing the universal reality but using different tools.
As regards quantum mechanics, the "Uncertainty Principle" first enunciated by Werner Heisenberg says that you cannot correctly predict the position and the velocity of a particle,at the same time. This is what you have stated. How is that relevant to the cause and effect theory ?Please explain.
As regards many posters here saying that the Big Bang was the prime cause,I cannot recollect the name/s of the poster/s who said that.But it could have been said on Science forum posts also.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Many Saints and Philosophers have realized God and have given ample guidance regarding how to realize God,here,in one's sojourn on this earth.

Or so they claim, but since various claimants have significantly different claims, one is left with the realization that a large percentage of them are mistaken.

As regards quantum mechanics, the "Uncertainty Principle" first enunciated by Werner Heisenberg says that you cannot correctly predict the position and the velocity of a particle,at the same time. This is what you have stated. How is that relevant to the cause and effect theory ?Please explain.
If you cannot predict something, then you cannot be sure it was caused by something. The Uncertainty Principle does not rule out cause/effect, but it does suggest that cause/effect is not known to be the case.
When you look for a particle, quantum mechanics can tell you the probability of finding it in a give position. There is a wave function that gives the probability of finding it in various positions. But when you observe it, and find it in one place and not another, there is no known reason why you found it there and not somewhere else. ie there is no known cause.

As regards many posters here saying that the Big Bang was the prime cause,I cannot recollect the name/s of the poster/s who said that.But it could have been said on Science forum posts also.
I hang out over in science too and do not recall seeing that claim expressed.

Originally posted by 667joe
Religion is no more than codified superstition! That being said, theists are therefore superstitious! Pay them no heed.

The spirit can turn a man towards many different religions. Some are nuts and some offer relief from the stress of life. Not all spiritual longing is worthless. Open up to what might be. Open up to the magic that is out there.

Originally posted by buckky
The spirit can turn a man towards many different religions. Some are nuts and some offer relief from the stress of life. Not all spiritual longing is worthless. Open up to what might be. Open up to the magic that is out there.

Why not just meditate?

It's calming, helps you think, is good for stress levels (or reducing them)
and doesn't stick you with a set of ridiculous prohibitions, rituals and hangups
that ruin the rest of your life, or ability to make rational judgements.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Why not just meditate?

It's calming, helps you think, is good for stress levels (or reducing them)
and doesn't stick you with a set of ridiculous prohibitions, rituals and hangups
that ruin the rest of your life, or ability to make rational judgements.

buckky is talking about spiritual longing. That longing is present in all humans,atheists included. Meditation is recommended as one way to attain the spiritual goal namely realisation of God.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Meditation is recommended as one way to attain the spiritual goal namely realisation of God.

I like meditation. The wordlessness is the key to it. It is words that hamstring religions, by reducing the dimension they are seeking to address down to digestible and controllable package deals so oversimplified and codified that they are little more than anthropological or cultural artifacts. Meanwhile these 'package deals' provide people like Dasa and RJHinds, with all their evident interpersonal and intellectual inadequacies, with 'dot points' and circular arguments as they try to fill their minds with the task of browbeating everyone else for having internalized something different from them. And they endeavour to pass off their self-anointment and their own assertions [words, words, words], interlaced with the bullying and condescension mentioned above, as "spirituality". Yes. I believe wordlessness is the key to meditation.