05 Dec 05
2 edits
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesYou are actually making a Strawman argument (Ivanhoe pay close attention). Conceivably, staying in the building might have been suicidal, but the actual choice they made was on the ledge. They had a choice of: A) Jumping or B) Not jumping. The choice of jumping is an intentional ending of their own life at a certain time decided by them, ergo suicide. Not jumping is leaving their fate in God's hands, which is required by the Darfius' of the world. What led to the choice on the ledge is irrelevant; they still had the free will to decide not to end their lives AT THAT MOMENT.
The people who remained in the building and died in the flames were not forced to stay. They chose to. They could forsee the immediate consequences of staying. There is no difference between staying and jumping, other than the fact that jumping is often employed as an means of suicide, while reamaing in a burning building is a less-often chosen me ...[text shortened]... incorrect generalization that all cases of jumping from buildings are an act of suicide.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeYou are being irrational and emotional because you are concentrating on what happened prior to claim that the decision by the jumpers was not suicide. As pointed out above. the jumpers had a choice at the ledge to end their lives immediately or to leave it in God's hands. They choose to commit suicide; such a decision may have been perfectly logical and justifiable in my or your eyes, but it was still suicide.
[b]marauder: "You're being irrational."
Could you please elaborate on this, please.
marauder: "They were both victims of an act of terrorism AND suicides.
Could you elaborate, please ? Are you equating in some way the perpetrators's actions with the jumpers's actions here ?[/b]
Your second question is a red herring. There were people in the building who were victims of an act of terrorism who were not suicides. The categories are not mutually exclusive or mutually inclusive.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by HalitoseDeath is ALWAYS inevitable. The Christian objection to suicide must be that the person decides WHEN he is going to die, not if. If someone ever gets around to answering that point it would be nice.
The bottom-line is they did [b]not want to die; death was just inevitable. A person who commits suicide wants to die and takes action to kill him/herself. The emphasis is that they jumped from the windows to avoid the fire, not as an act of suicide.[/b]
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by fooeyThe question is addressed to people who believe things like this:
They could have landed on a fat american passerby, or a stack of donuts. These are probabilites and not much less likely. I still find it hard to define that act as suicide, it was just a judgement call based on the best chance of survival and the more preferable way to die.
There's a lot of things thought morally wrong in christian dogma, it certainly doe ...[text shortened]... oing them either. They seem to pick and choose which ones they wish to follow, preach or ignore.
Darfius: Committing suicide is a one way ticket to hell. It shows a complete and utter lack of belief that God can help you through anything. In other words, even if he had faith, he lost it at that last moment.
AND
Darfius: I'm simply pointing out that suicide gets you hell, according to the Bible
If you don't believe things like that, then obviously the question doesn't apply to you just as the question wouldn't be relevant to someone who doesn't believe in the concept of "eternal damnation" or "Hell" at all.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderFor those who stayed rather than jumped...
Conceivably, staying in the building might have been suicidal, but the actual choice they made was on the ledge. They had a choice of: A) Jumping or B) Not jumping. The choice of jumping is an intentional ending of their own life at a certain time decided by them, ergo suicide. Not jumping is leaving their fate in God's hands, which is required by the D ...[text shortened]... dge is irrelevant; they still had the free will to decide not to end their lives AT THAT MOMENT.
Conceivably, jumping from the building might have been suicidal, but the actual choice they made was on the ledge. They had a choice of: A) Staying or B) Not staying. The choice of staying is an intentional ending of their own life at a certain time decided by them, ergo suicide. Not staying is leaving their fate in God's hands. What led to the choice on the ledge is irrelevant; they still had the free will to decide not to end their lives AT THAT MOMENT.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderDeath is ALWAYS inevitable.
Death is ALWAYS inevitable. The Christian objection to suicide must be that the person decides WHEN he is going to die, not if. If someone ever gets around to answering that point it would be nice.
C'mon No1, do you have to split hair on this? I meant "immediate death".
The Christian objection to suicide must be that the person decides WHEN he is going to die, not if. If someone ever gets around to answering that point it would be nice.
No, the objection is when it's a case of premeditated self-murder, with God being the only one to decide how extenuating the circumstances are.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderI obviously don't believe in these notions either, but am challenging the use of this example to provoke the zealots, I don't think the example does the point justice.
The question is addressed to people who believe things like this:
Darfius: Committing suicide is a one way ticket to hell. It shows a complete and utter lack of belief that God can help you through anything. In other words, even if he had faith, he lost it at that last moment.
AND
Darfius: I'm simply pointing out that suicide gets you ...[text shortened]... vant to someone who doesn't believe in the concept of "eternal damnation" or "Hell" at all.
05 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by HalitoseHow is jumping off a 90 story building not "premeditated self-murder"? Remember that premeditation in a legal sense does not require any specific time period; it is enough that the actor think about the decision and then do it. Do you think that the woman who crossed herself and then jumped hadn't "premeditated" about her decision?
[b]Death is ALWAYS inevitable.
C'mon No1, do you have to split hair on this? I meant "immediate death".
The Christian objection to suicide must be that the person decides WHEN he is going to die, not if. If someone ever gets around to answering that point it would be nice.
No, the objection is when it's a case of premeditated self-murder, with God being the only one to decide how extenuating the circumstances are.[/b]
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderObserve the extenuating circumstance clause. Essentially, I am not in any position to pronouce judgement on any of the people who jumped from the WTC towers.
How is jumping off a 90 story building not "premeditated self-murder"? Remember that premeditation in a legal sense does not require any specific time period; it is enough that the actor think about the decision and then do it. Do you think that the woman who crossed herself and then jumped hadn't "premeditated" about her decision?
05 Dec 05
2 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderAnd note: premeditated self-murder. IMO, she crossed herself and jumped, not with the intent of killing herself, but rather to escape the fire: one of the most powerful instincts we have is to avoid severe pain. She obviously realised that she would probably die, but ultimately hoped against hope.
How is jumping off a 90 story building not "premeditated self-murder"? Remember that premeditation in a legal sense does not require any specific time period; it is enough that the actor think about the decision and then do it. Do you think that the woman who crossed herself and then jumped hadn't "premeditated" about her decision?
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderI am being irrational and emotional (??) because I am "concentrating on what happened prior to claim that the decision by the jumpers was not suicide." ?
You are being irrational and emotional because you are concentrating on what happened prior to claim that the decision by the jumpers was not suicide. As pointed out above. the jumpers had a choice at the ledge to end their lives immediately or to leave it in God's hands. They choose to commit suicide; such a decision may have been perfectly logical and ...[text shortened]... errorism who were not suicides. The categories are not mutually exclusive or mutually inclusive.
marauder: "As pointed out above. the jumpers had a choice at the ledge to end their lives immediately or to leave it in God's hands."
Only in an inhumane and very legalistic reductionist formal way, marauder. Unacceptable reasoning as I pointed out before.
You are again very eager to accuse people without good reason, marauder, in this case of being irrational and emotional (??). (... and the jumpers of course of committing suicide).
Are you feeling that you are defending the indefensible again ?
Your reductionist legalism reminds me of the way strict fundamentalists interprete Scripture.
marauder: "There were people in the building who were victims of an act of terrorism who were not suicides."
The only ones who committed suicide were the terrorists, marauder.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by HalitoseDon't be absurd; she knew she was going to die and hoped God invoked the "extenuating circumstance" clause you mentioned. I have no problem with those who argue the existence of the EC clause; I do have a problem with people saying that jumping off a 90 story building isn't suicide.
And note: premeditated self-murder. IMO, she crossed herself and jumped, not with the intent of killing herself, but rather to escape the fire: one of the most powerful instincts we have - is to avoid severe pain. She obviously realised that she would probably die, but ultimately hoped against hope.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderHow premeditated do you think it is when you have flames licking at you face and your every reflex is urging you off that ledge?
Don't be absurd; she knew she was going to die and hoped God invoked the "extenuating circumstance" clause you mentioned. I have no problem with those who argue the existence of the EC clause; I do have a problem with people saying that jumping off a 90 story building isn't suicide.