13 Jan 10
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Originally posted by galveston75Im familar with all those quotes. Im not your student. If you read what I wrote you would see that I said that your questions on Lazarus are irrelevant and are simply a diversionary tactic. Try to focus on what Christ said and foget the JWs false doctrines.
I know there is no way you've read all those scriptures Raj. Why not? And why are you ignoring the questions on Lazuras?
Why are you ignoring what Christ said?
Your quotes are often irrelevant as well as so many others on this site know. Just one random example:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
What does that have to do with the body and soul being the same?
13 Jan 10
Originally posted by Rajk999Take a little of your own medicine again.
Im familar with all those quotes. Im not your student. If you read what I wrote you would see that I said that your questions on Lazarus are irrelevant and are simply a diversionary tactic. Try to focus on what Christ said and foget the JWs false doctrines.
Why are you ignoring what Christ said?
You said:
" Notice that I dont explain anything. I simply quote the relevant verses and they speak for themselves. Try doing that sometimes."
Read Hebrews 1:8.
13 Jan 10
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
Christ is the Son of God and God is the Father.
=================================
Not much rambling is needed. Only a little quotation:
"But of the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the sceper of uprighteness is the scepter of You kingdom." "(Hebrews 1:8)
I expect that the stammerings and ramblings will now be from your side.[/b]
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
The relationship still remains Father and Son.
They are still separate and distinct.
Nothing changes.
So the Father calls His Son a God.
I have no problem with the divinity of Christ.
I have a problem with them being mixed up into one and being called the same.
They are two separate and distinct entities.
God is the head of Christ.
13 Jan 10
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Originally posted by Rajk999===================
[quote]Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh ...[text shortened]... being called the same.
They are two separate and distinct entities.
God is the head of Christ.
The relationship still remains Father and Son.
=======================
Of course. And there is only one God and both the Father and the Son are God.
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They are still separate and distinct.
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Distinct but not separate.
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Nothing changes.
========================
In the emanant Trinity or the essential Trinity nothing changes.
In the economical Trinity "the Word became flesh" and "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" John 1:14; 1 Cor. 15:45.
==========================
So the Father calls His Son a God.
=========================
That's right. And your challenge was (with laughs) that I could not explain that Christ was God.
I didn't have to. I simply let Hebrews 1:8 explain.
============================
I have no problem with the divinity of Christ.
============================
Except when someone says that Christ is God, for some reason you Laugh Out Loud.
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I have a problem with them being mixed up into one and being called the same.
================================
We should avoid either being tritheists (three Gods) or modalists (three non simultaneous modes).
Christ is the mingling of God and man.
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They are two separate and distinct entities.
==============================
Distinct but not separate, I say.
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God is the head of Christ.
============================
Amen.
And the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ bodily (Col. 2:9; 1:19).
Now stop that giggling!
13 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75Rajk99 is right about Matthew 10. The passage definitely shows that God possesses a power and an authority beyond what man has. Man may kill the body. After that there is no more man can do.
Soul is the thread here guys....
God on the other hand is to be feared more. After the body is killed God can still do something additional to the soul.
Rajk999 is correct that this passage defeats JW's belief of the annhilated soul upon the death of the body.
Now here is a problem. The JW will say "There is no doctrine of an eternal soul in the Bible. And such an idea of an eternal soul is Greek philosophy."
Well, he may be right that there is no doctrine of an eternal soul in the Bible. And he may be right that an eternal soul doctrine in Greek philosophy.
But that does not mean that there is no evidence of the soul does not survive the death of the body. While there may be no explicit teaching or doctrine proclaiming an eternal soul there is evidence that the soul can exist after the body is killed.
I don't hunt for a doctrine of the eternality of the soul to answer JW's charge. I simply point out where the soul is not annhilated at the death of the body.
What Sacrates and Plato taught has no effect on this evidence.
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matt. 10:28)
If the result of man casting you into Gehenna is exactly the same as God casting you into Gehenna, then what reason is there to reserve greater fear for God?
If man casts you into the city dump and your body is killed and your soul is also destroyed then why is God to be feared more? According to JW the result should be the same - body and soul are killed.
Yet Jesus taught that there was something more dreadful that could be inflicted upon someone then their body being killed. Their soul He might punish afterwards.
Since His reach extends beyond what man can inflict Jesus says " ... fear Him who is ABLE to destroy both soul and body ..."
Without having to get into what Gehenna is, it is sufficient to realize the phrase " ... fear Him who is ABLE ..." definitely means God has an ability which surpasses what man is able to do.
Not only your material part can He destroy but your immaterial part as well.
Watchtower's teaching that the soul is only the blood crashes to the ground.
13 Jan 10
The above post is only on the negative side. God has great plans for the soul of the saved person.
In God's full salvation the soul must be transformed. It must be transformed into the image of Christ. It must be filled with the Spirit of Christ and be conformed to Christ.
Human language may be limited here. But the soul contains the mind, emotion, and will. In God's salvation the mind, emotion, and will need to be filled with the life of Christ.
This requires time.
So in the New Testament salvation -
The human spirit is regenerated.
The human soul is transformed.
The human body is transfigured.
13 Jan 10
Originally posted by jaywillAll I ask is for ((((( 1 ))))) scripture or quote from Jesus that says the soul does not die and lives on past death. Just 1 will do.
The above post is only on the negative side. God has great plans for the soul of the saved person.
In God's full salvation the soul must be transformed. It must be transformed into the image of Christ. It must be filled with the Spirit of Christ and be conformed to Christ.
Human language may be limited here. But the soul contains the mind, emotion, ...[text shortened]... enerated.
The human soul is transformed.
The human body is transfigured.[/b]
And why do you and Raj still ignor all the other scriptures that say the soul dies????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
13 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75You are a comedian?
All I ask is for ((((( 1 ))))) scripture or quote from Jesus that says the soul does not die and lives on past death. Just 1 will do.
And why do you and Raj still ignor all the other scriptures that say the soul dies????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
13 Jan 10
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Originally posted by Rajk999The whole point of this discussion Raj is to establish wether or not that any concsience part of a human continues on after death with you wether you call it a soul or body or spirit or ghost or whatever. All scriptures in the Bible say no it doesn't happen. All are dead without thought in the grave until the time comes for him to be resurrected to either heaven or back on earth. The very weak attempt that you and Jay are using with that one scripture if what you are saying is true, contradicts all the other scriptures that say your dead without any thoughts.
You are a comedian?
Even Jesus was dead for those 3 days without any kind of thought process of any type. If he had I'm sure he would have told someone.
He said Lazuras was asleep for those days he was dead and no where else.
And this is one point that you guys have yet to address which I know, it's because you can't.
14 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75Like I said already --
The whole point of this discussion Raj is to establish wether or not that any concsience part of a human continues on after death with you wether you call it a soul or body or spirit or ghost or whatever. All scriptures in the Bible say no it doesn't happen. All are dead without thought in the grave until the time comes for him to be resurrected to eith ...[text shortened]... nd this is one point that you guys have yet to address which I know, it's because you can't.
Christ in Matt 10 made a clear statement.
In Luke 16 he gave a detailed illustration.
Obviously that not good enough for a JW.
You believe in the JW organisation.
I rather believe in Christ.
So Good Luck to you.
14 Jan 10
Originally posted by Rajk999Still can't come up with a defence can you?
Like I said already --
Christ in Matt 10 made a clear statement.
In Luke 16 he gave a detailed illustration.
Obviously that not good enough for a JW.
You believe in the JW organisation.
I rather believe in Christ.
So Good Luck to you.
14 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999The whole point of this discussion Raj is to establish wether or not that any concsience part of a human continues on after death with you wether you call it a soul or body or spirit or ghost or whatever. All scriptures in the Bible say no it doesn't happen. All are dead without thought in the grave until the time comes for him to be resurrected to either heaven or back on earth. The very weak attempt that you and Jay are using with that one scripture if what you are saying is true, contradicts all the other scriptures that say your dead without any thoughts.
A defence for what?
Christ was very clear that the body dies and the soul lives until God is ready to destroy it. What is there to defend.
Even Jesus was dead for those 3 days without any kind of thought process of any type. If he had I'm sure he would have told someone.
He said Lazuras was asleep for those days he was dead and no where else.
And this is one point that you guys have yet to address which I know, it's because you can't.
Here it is again..... I'm waiting for a responce!!!!