06 Feb 12
"for Knightmeister who claims to have a form of godliness but says he has to get the Holy Spirit and then he will do good works" ---- Rakj99
I did not say this. I am simply saying that Godliness is produced by God's Spirit. We perform good works through the power of his Spirit. Good works are very important as is living a holy , pure and loving life , but how are we to achieve this without God's help? This is the essential dilemma of man. Our pride and independence cause to to think we can do it all by ourselves.
Do you think you can do it all without God's help? If so , you are in darkness because the NT is full of references to this idea that we are to become reliant on God's grace.
06 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterThird request : some supporting references please. Thank you.
"for Knightmeister who claims to have a form of godliness but says he has to get the Holy Spirit and then he will do good works" ---- Rakj99
I did not say this. I am simply saying that Godliness is produced by God's Spirit. We perform good works through the power of his Spirit. Good works are very important as is living a holy , pure and loving li ...[text shortened]... se the NT is full of references to this idea that we are to become reliant on God's grace.
06 Feb 12
Originally posted by Rajk999Are you really saying that I need to reference this idea? Surely not! You either haven't read the NT or you are being willfully obstructive.
Third request : some supporting references please. Thank you.
The NT talks at length about how we are to be filled with the Spirit (via the grace of God) and strengthened by the Spirit. The Spirit helps us in our struggle against sin and gives us self control. The Spirit brings forth good fruit and enables us to do good. It is us and God working together to produce good works.
If we could just be "good" without any help from God then what would be the point of Jesus? Why send his Spirit upon us? Who would need the grace of God?
You really think you can please God and "earn" your salvation outside of the Spirit of Christ? To think that would be to deny God the glory and give man the glory. Have you not understood that pride is the enemy here?
06 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterYet you felt compelled to mention it. And you mentioned it after being asked for evidence - as if you thought people might be able to see it.
I DID NOT SAY THIS AND I UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE CAN'T SEE HIM BECAUSE THE WORLD IS IN DARKNESS.
ISN'T THIS A GOOD THING , WHO WANTS AN ELITIST GOD? DO YOU?
No, it isn't a good thing - and no its not an either or situation - which you probably know but are conveniently overlooking. Why should God favour those of lower intelligence or those with poor education or those with little material wealth? Why should I have less chance of believing in God, or getting to heaven or whatever else Gods favour achieves than the average person?
I DID NOT SAY THIS EITHER
So you admit that the events in your life that you attribute to God, could well be caused by something else?
WELL , THIS IS ACTUALLY TRUE DON'T YOU THINK.
No, not in the slightest.
IF WE ACTUALLY MET IN REAL LIFE I MIGHT NEED TO KNOW YOUR NAME AND WHAT YOU LOOKED LIKE TO RECOGNIZE YOU. IF I HAD NO IDEA WHAT TO EXPECT HOW WOULD I KNOW IT WAS YOU?
You wouldn't need to know it was me, to know someone was there.
IF THE HOLY SPIRIT STARTS TO MOVE IN YOUR LIFE THEN YOU WILL TAKE THE WHOLE THING VERY SERIOUSLY.
So, I ask again - why mention it. Mentioning it doesn't make it happen. Mentioning it just makes you look bad. It can only ever be substantiated in some hypothetical future where I become Christian. Why not just shut up and wait for that day?
HE DOES NOT BECAUSE YOU DON'T ASK HIM TO. ASK HIM WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND I GUARANTEE IT WILL BECOME PRETTY DARN SERIOUS.
Yes, I am well aware that self delusion is highly effective. And no, I won't be trying it.
BTW- IT'S NOT ME THAT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY
Nor is it God apparently. After all, he is not an elitist and needs to be asked before he lets anyone believe in him. Bit of a catch 22 that one.
06 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterThe good thing is that with science and logic we can decide which is which. Would you care to try an experiment to that effect, or would it be too risky for your religious beliefs?
If one wanted to rationalize away the Holy Spirit what better way to do then to claim that the Holy Spirit is a rationalization of delusional brain states? That way you don't have to think about what God might want to say to you about your life.
It's an argument that works both ways. What amazes me it that many doubters and skeptics never seem to get round to doubting their own doubts and being skeptical about their own skepticism.
I don't think you understand skepticism. I also don't think you go around doubting your skepticism about Islam and the religion of Thor.
06 Feb 12
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterYour faith without works means
Are you really saying that I need to reference this idea? Surely not! You either haven't read the NT or you are being willfully obstructive.
The NT talks at length about how we are to be filled with the Spirit (via the grace of God) and strengthened by the Spirit. The Spirit helps us in our struggle against sin and gives us self control. The Spirit God the glory and give man the glory. Have you not understood that pride is the enemy here?
- YOU ARE DEAD [James]
- YOU ARE NOTHING [Paul]
- YOU ARE A LIAR [John]
- YOU ARE A GOAT [Christ]
You are fooling yourself if you believe that you have the Holy Spirit after you get baptised. Or worse if you are like Jaywill if you think you are regenerated. Your teachings are the direct result of the lazy greedy Christians who think they can sit on their behind and get salvation. You are like the rich man in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus told by Jesus. You are on the road to damnation with your doctrine.
Christ - Matt 25 : Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
(Matthew 25:34-36)
James - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ... by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. .. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:20-26)
John - 1 John 2:3-5 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Paul - 1 Cor 13:2 ... and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing...
Good Luck to you and your false teachings.
PS .. I can quote the Bible with nice clear scripture which you cannot refute. Thats why you refuse to quote the source of your beliefs. Guess who knows the NT better ? 😀
06 Feb 12
Originally posted by Rajk999Your faith without works means
Your faith without works means
- YOU ARE DEAD [James]
- YOU ARE NOTHING [Paul]
- YOU ARE A LIAR [John]
- YOU ARE A GOAT [Christ]
You are fooling yourself if you believe that you have the Holy Spirit after you get baptised. Or worse if you are like Jaywill if you think you are regenerated. Your teachings are the direct result of the lazy greedy Ch ...[text shortened]... te. Thats why you refuse to quote the source of your beliefs. Guess who knows the NT better ? 😀
- YOU ARE DEAD [James]
- YOU ARE NOTHING [Paul]
- YOU ARE A LIAR [John]
- YOU ARE A GOAT [Christ]
------------------Rajk99---------------------------------------------
How do you presume to judge that my faith is without works? You know nothing about what I do. I am not offended by this , I only fear for you , because if you are so judgmental how can you be close to Christ's love?
I have faith and works in my life. You did not know this but you assumed that I did not think works were important.
Why is this? Is the doctrine of grace so abominable to you? I do not see how good works will "get" you the Holy Spirit. I see good works as evidence of the Spirit. If you are capable of living a life that will win you salvation all by yourself (with no help from the Spirit) then why bother with any of it? Who needs God eh?
Can't you that this is the very legalism that the NT was subverting? Open your mind .
06 Feb 12
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterPlease provide references. Thanks.
Your faith without works means
- YOU ARE DEAD [James]
- YOU ARE NOTHING [Paul]
- YOU ARE A LIAR [John]
- YOU ARE A GOAT [Christ]
------------------Rajk99---------------------------------------------
How do you presume to judge that my faith is without works? You know nothing about what I do. I am not offended by this , I only fear for y h?
Can't you that this is the very legalism that the NT was subverting? Open your mind .
Edit : Im pretty sure nobody is interested in your opinion about what gives salvation or in your take on faith or works or grace. Anyone reading these threads are more likely to be interested in what Christ, Paul and the other Apostles SAID CLEARLY AND SPECIFICALLY about salvation. In other words what are the FACTS.
Since you were unable to respond to any of the statements made by Christ or the Apostles, neither did you respond to the facts give several pages earlier about whether or not the Good Samaritan who Christ called 'GOOD', neither were you able to respond about what Paul said in Romans 2 about many without law can and do in fact perform good works .. I can conclude that your statement that you must have the Holy Spirit to do good works is pure nonsense.
However if you do find some references to support your FAITH ONLY doctrine I would be willing to listen.
By the way the entire NT preaches that FAITH + WORKS are both essential for salvation and this is clearly stated BY ALL in the apostles.
07 Feb 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999By the way the entire NT preaches that FAITH + WORKS are both essential for salvation and this is clearly stated BY ALL in the apostles.
Please provide references. Thanks.
Edit : Im pretty sure nobody is interested in your opinion about what gives salvation or in your take on faith or works or grace. Anyone reading these threads are more likely to be interested in what Christ, Paul and the other Apostles SAID CLEARLY AND SPECIFICALLY about salvation. In other words what are the FACTS.
TH + WORKS are both essential for salvation and this is clearly stated BY ALL in the apostles.
---------------------Rajk99--------------------------------------------
Oh , Rajk - why are you so angry? Don't you know that I agree with what you have written above? We both know what the NT says about faith and works so there is little point in quoting them as if they were rocks we might throw at each other. The issue is how we INTERPRET the words of the NT.
There would also be little point in doing that unless we are able to listen to each other. For example , I have not said that I support a FAITH ONLY doctrine. It's impossible to debate with you if you misrepresent what I am saying or put words into my mouth. Now , I may have been guilty of doing this myself at times and if I have then I'm sorry.
My understanding of the NT is that it quite clearly says that faith without works is dead faith. I presume you would agree? But it also says that if we think that our works will "earn" us salvation then we are also mistaken because we are into legalism. The NT is trying to guide us away from two possible mistakes we might make
MISTAKE 1) All I have to do is profess faith in Christ and I am saved and then I can sit on my bum and not worry about it. It doesn't matter what I do because the Holy Spirit will take care of it. (Complacency - leads to impurity , apathy , a life not worthy of Christ)
MISTAKE 2) If I do enough good works then God will have to give me salvation because I have earned it. I don't need God's grace to achieve this because I can do it on my own. (self reliance - leads to self righteousness , lack of gratitude , and fear of God , legalism etc)
Now if you look more carefully you will see that NT seems to contradict itself at times. Why? Because it's trying to guide us away from both of these mistakes.
TRUTH - We are saved by faith which is a gift of God's grace by his Spirit BUT if such a faith is genuine then it will lead to a changed life and good works and the fruits and gifts of the Spirit. Good works are an expression of saving faith.
In all this it is God's grace and power that is most important "so that no man may boast" (and therefore God gets the glory)
So think about it Rajk99. Dwell on God's grace for a second. For example , do you not realize that the only reason why you are even able to to think about doing good works for God is because he is enabling you and helping you to do so? Do you not realize that every act of love you perform is Jesus working through you and that it is not of you. You cannot even love others unless God first gives you that love to give (as an act of grace -"we love because he first loved us" )
When you perform your good works do you then thank God for giving you the strength and goodness to do such works? Or do you turn to God in the hope that he will see "your" goodness and count it in your favour? Do you not realize that any goodness in you is put there by God?
Oh Rajk99 , don't let pride and self righteousness get in the way of seeing your need for Christ.
07 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou are just talking without :
By the way the entire NT preaches that FAITH + WORKS are both essential for salvation and this is clearly stated BY ALL in the apostles.
---------------------Rajk99--------------------------------------------
Oh , Rajk - why are you so angry? Don't you know that I agree with what you have written above? We both know what the NT says about faith a ...[text shortened]... t pride and self righteousness get in the way of seeing your need for Christ.
1. Dealing with the passages I quoted you about the Good Samaritan doing good works . Did he have the Holy Spirit.
2. Without providing any references for your statements.
Romans Chapter 2 contradicts what you are saying.
07 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterVery good.
By the way the entire NT preaches that FAITH + WORKS are both essential for salvation and this is clearly stated BY ALL in the apostles.
---------------------Rajk99--------------------------------------------
Oh , Rajk - why are you so angry? Don't you know that I agree with what you have written above? We both know what the NT says about faith a ...[text shortened]... t pride and self righteousness get in the way of seeing your need for Christ.
Thanks for taking the time.
07 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterUpon closer inspection of your mistakes 1 and 2, I realised that Jaywill and his OSAS group falls squarely in #!. He has said repeatedly that good works are not important and faith alone saves and saves eternally no matter your subsequent conduct.
... MISTAKE 1) All I have to do is profess faith in Christ and I am saved and then I can sit on my bum and not worry about it. It doesn't matter what I do because the Holy Spirit will take care of it. (Complacency - leads to impurity , apathy , a life not worthy of Christ)
MISTAKE 2) If I do enough good works then God will have to give me salv ...[text shortened]... liance - leads to self righteousness , lack of gratitude , and fear of God , legalism etc)...
Obviously you imply that I am making mistake #2. You are wrong.
Let me explain my beliefs which I can [and mostly do] support with Bible references. I dont talk from thin air like many so-called Christians, and dramatize the whole issue with fancy words about loving Christ and Christ this, that and the other like hypocrites and then go and do exactly what Christ says not to do. Christianity has become a cesspool of selfishness and greed and many would not find favour with Christ.
Here is what I believe - We are all saved by the grace of God through the death and resurrection of Christ. Without that grace, no amount of good works would have been sufficient to save us. That is what Paul meant when he said that we are saved by grace and not by works. He meant we are saved from sin in the flesh - Adams sin - because the wages of sin is death and Christ has done the saving from Adam's sin. We now have a chance [which we did not have before Christ] to escape the wages of sin - Death. However we cannot benefit from Christ saving grace unless we have Faith in Christ and prove that we actually have faith [not just words and talk] but by doing the good works Christ commanded, and which Paul repeated, and which John and Peter and James all repeated. FAITH IS DEAD WITHOUT WORKS.
Both are essential. You have either said or implied that works are not important or that works can only happen if you have the Holy Spirit.
I say you are wrong and you have yet to show me where that is in the Bible.
07 Feb 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999
Upon closer inspection of your mistakes 1 and 2, I realised that Jaywill and his OSAS group falls squarely in #!. He has said repeatedly that good works are not important and faith alone saves and saves eternally no matter your subsequent conduct.
Obviously you imply that I am making mistake #2. You are wrong.
Let me explain my beliefs which I can [a he Holy Spirit.
I say you are wrong and you have yet to show me where that is in the Bible.
Upon closer inspection of your mistakes 1 and 2, I realised that Jaywill and his OSAS group falls squarely in #!. He has said repeatedly that good works are not important
QUOTE ME on that. That I wrote that good works are not important.
If no quote, then retract (not holding my breath).
I have taught that good works will not obtain for you the GIFT of eternal life and eternal salvation.... NOT that works were not important.
And it is not MY teaching. It is that of the New Testament -
Get ready to put your blinders on now. Close your eyes. Shut your ears. Padlock your mind. READY ? Here we go. Make sure you MISS it again:
"FOR BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD; NOT OF WORKS THAT NO ONE SHOULD BOAST" (EPHESIANS 2:8,9)
Sorry I have to raise my voice. But I think you'll still miss it anyway this time too.
and faith alone saves and saves eternally no matter your subsequent conduct.
As to eternal redemption that is true.
One of these days we'll get off this subject and have a discussion SOLELY ---- SOLELY about the New Testament's teaching of the importance of expressing Christ in works.
You see in the Old Testament it was WORK first and then LIFE.
In the New Testament is is LIFE first and then WORK.
But one day we will get on, perhaps, "The Judgment Seat of Christ" which is the judgment of those who are eternally saved. Then we will talk about the importants of recompense of reward to those eternally saved.
Obviously you imply that I am making mistake #2. You are wrong.
The post was rather good in showing TWO opposite extremes.
When the Devil sends errors into the world it is usually in PAIRS of opposite extremes. This is for the purpose of capturing people in one error or its opposite. And that post was very good to show the two opposing erroneous extremes.
Let me explain my beliefs which I can [and mostly do] support with Bible references. I dont talk from thin air like many so-called Christians, and dramatize the whole issue with fancy words about loving Christ and Christ this, that and the other like hypocrites and then go and do exactly what Christ says not to do. Christianity has become a cesspool of selfishness and greed and many would not find favour with Christ.
Because can point that out, does that make you one bit better ?
No.
Pointing that out may just be the knowledge of good and evil - something of which we fallen human beings are very proud.
Maybe I have seen more hypocrisy than you have.
The truth is absolute. The truth is not dependent upon the condition of Christians. The truth is the truth.
And in every age there has always been a remnant of normal overcomers rising to the level, the standard of a victorious life in Christ.
Don't be like Elijah who thought he was the ONLY one left.
Here is what I believe - We are all saved by the grace of God through the death and resurrection of Christ. Without that grace, no amount of good works would have been sufficient to save us. That is what Paul meant when he said that we are saved by grace and not by works. He meant we are saved from sin in the flesh - Adams sin - because the wages of sin is death and Christ has done the saving from Adam's sin. We now have a chance [which we did not have before Christ] to escape the wages of sin - Death. However we cannot benefit from Christ saving grace unless we have Faith in Christ and prove that we actually have faith [not just words and talk] but by doing the good works Christ commanded, and which Paul repeated, and which John and Peter and James all repeated. FAITH IS DEAD WITHOUT WORKS.
Maybe I'll comment on this in another post.
10 Feb 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe good thing is that with science and logic we can decide which is which. Would you care to try an experiment to that effect, or would it be too risky for your religious beliefs?
The good thing is that with science and logic we can decide which is which. Would you care to try an experiment to that effect, or would it be too risky for your religious beliefs?
[b]It's an argument that works both ways. What amazes me it that many doubters and skeptics never seem to get round to doubting their own doubts and being skeptical about th ...[text shortened]... also don't think you go around doubting your skepticism about Islam and the religion of Thor.
-------whitey ------------------
I'm up for any experiment you like. However , it would need to be reciprocated in order to be fair don't you think? Would it be too risky for your beliefs?
10 Feb 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999FAITH IS DEAD WITHOUT WORKS.
Upon closer inspection of your mistakes 1 and 2, I realised that Jaywill and his OSAS group falls squarely in #!. He has said repeatedly that good works are not important and faith alone saves and saves eternally no matter your subsequent conduct.
Obviously you imply that I am making mistake #2. You are wrong.
Let me explain my beliefs which I can [a he Holy Spirit.
I say you are wrong and you have yet to show me where that is in the Bible.
Both are essential. You have either said or implied that works are not important or that works can only happen if you have the Holy Spirit.
--------------------------Rajk99------------------------------------------
I agree with much of what you say. I am not in support of a dead faith where one talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. As usual with these sorts of arguments there is often only a cigarette paper's distance between the two positions , but it tends to be a significant cigarette paper.
I do not say that works are not important but I do say that we cannot live the life Christ wants us to without the Holy Spirit. Infact , the NT tells us that we cannot even love others without God loving us first ("we love because he first loved us" )1 John 4:19. Paul also points out that "if we have not love we are but a clanging symbol" in his famous verse. Therefore , logically we are always in debt to God's grace for Him giving us the love we need in order to love others.
Anything we do that is not of love is just worthless to God (including works). If we perform good works to get salvation then that's not love , it's self oriented. Therefore , God wants us to be assured of salvation so that we do good works as an EXPRESSION of salvation , out of LOVE. We cannot do this if we live in fear of God and think that we must perform these works to get his good favour.
So although the NT says that Faith without works is dead - it does not ever say to my knowledge that it is works that save us , however it does say many times that faith saves us. It is faith and the receiving of his Spirit that ENABLES us to love others - and if we love others we will naturally perform good works.
I wonder Rajk99 what exactly you think the Holy Spirit is actually for. Do you think he's some kindly ghost that occasionally shows up to give us a Bible verse? Do you really think that you can do anything "good" in this life unless God grants it and gives you the strength to do it?