- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
01 Apr 13
Originally posted by divegeesterSince you claim you only know what scripture reveals, let's see what the scriptures say. Here are different versions, since I do not know what you use....
Ok, so neither God nor Satan control any part of your life, so why does it matter?
What part of the Earth/creation does God control (if any) and what part does Satan control?
1 John 5:19
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
NKJV
1 John 5:19-20
19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
NIV
1 John 5:19-20
19 We know that we are held firm by God; it's only the people of the world who continue in the grip of the Evil One.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)
1 John 5:19
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
KJV
Now, what do you think the scriptures are saying here?
01 Apr 13
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterInteresting choice of translation and another reason why I stick with the KJV.
1 John 5:19
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
NKJV
1 John 5:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Very different and very significant change, wouldn't you agree?
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
01 Apr 13
Originally posted by divegeesterOnly if it suits what you believe...
Interesting choice of translation and another reason why I stick with the KJV.
1 John 5:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world [b]lieth in wickedness.
Very different and very significant change, wouldn't you agree?[/b]
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And we know that we are of God - We who are Christians. The apostle supposed that true Christians might have so clear evidence on that subject as to leave no doubt on their own minds that they were the children of God. Compare 1 John 3:14; 2 Timothy 1:12.
And the whole world - The term "world" here evidently means not the material world, but the people who dwell on the earth, including all idolaters, and all sinners of every grade and kind.
Lieth in wickedness - "In the wicked one," or under the power of the wicked one - ἐν τῷ πονηρῷ en tō ponērō. It is true that the word πονηρῷ ponērō may be used here in the neuter gender, as our translators have rendered it, meaning "in that which is evil," or in "wickedness;" but it may be in the masculine gender, meaning "the wicked one;" and then the sense would be that the whole world is under his control or dominion. That this is the meaning of the apostle seems to be clear, because:
(1) the corresponding phrase, 1 John 5:20, ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ en tō alēthinō, "in him that is true," is evidently to be construed in the masculine, referring to God the Saviour, and meaning "him that is true," and not that we are "in truth."
(2) it makes better sense to say that the world lies under the control of the wicked one, than to say that it lies "in wickedness."
(3) this accords better with the other representations in the Bible, and the usuage of the word elsewhere. Compare 1 John 2:13, "Ye have overcome the "wicked" one;" 1 John 5:14, "ye have overcome the "wicked" one;" 1 John 3:12, "who was of that "wicked" one." See also the notes at 2 Corinthians 4:4, on the expression "the god of this world;" John 12:31, where he is called "the prince of this world;" and Ephesians 2:2, where he is called "the prince of the power of the air." In all these passages it is supposed that Satan has control over the world, especially the pagan world. Compare Ephesians 6:12; 1 Corinthians 10:20. In regard to the fact that the pagan world was pervaded by wickedness, see the notes at Romans 1:21-32.
(4) it may be added, that this interpretation is adopted by the most eminent critics and commentators. It is that of Calvin, Beza, Benson, Macknight, Bloomfield, Piscator, Lucke, etc. The word "lieth" here (κεῖται keitai) means, properly, to lie; to be laid; to recline; to be situated, etc. It seems here to refer to the "passive" and "torpid" state of a wicked world under the dominion of the prince of evil, as acquiescing in his reign; making no resistance; not even struggling to be free. It lies thus as a beast that is subdued, a body that is dead, or anything that is wholly passive, quiet, and inert. There is no energy; no effort to throw off the reign; no resistance; no struggling. The dominion is complete, and body and soul, individuals and nations, are entirely subject to his will. This striking expression will not unaptly now describe the condition of the pagan world, or of sinners in general. There would seem to be no government under which people are so little restive, and against which they have so little disposition to rebel, as that of Satan. Compare 2 Timothy 2:26.
01 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterThanks for the copy/paste dump.
Only if it suits what you believe...
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And we know that we are of God - We who are Christians. The apostle supposed that true Christians might have so clear evidence on that subject as to leave no doubt on their own minds that they were the children of God. Compare 1 John 3:14; 2 Timothy 1:12.
And the whole world - The t n to rebel, as that of Satan. Compare 2 Timothy 2:26.
Anyway, if God is not sovereign, why do you pray? Or don't you believe in the interventive power of prayer?
This is fascinating to me. I don't think I've met many Christians who believe Satan is more powerful than God.
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
01 Apr 13
Originally posted by divegeesterYou are adding words, trashing commentaries, and avoiding what is written in the bible. I never said Satan is more powerful than God. That is preposterous.
Thanks for the copy/paste dump.
Anyway, if God is not sovereign, why do you pray? Or don't you believe in the interventive power of prayer?
This is fascinating to me. I don't think I've met many Christians who believe Satan is more powerful than God.
When Satan tempted Jesus and offered all the Kingdoms of the world, he specifically said, "that were delivered to me". They were delivered to him from Adam. Jesus did not challenge him on it. Anyway, this discussion is going nowhere, I think your mind is made up. Peace...🙂
02 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterIt's only going nowhere if 'somewhere' is one of us 'winning'. These exchanges are useful, they require one to examine ones belief on a subject; no one has to change their mind on the topic in hand. I'm refraining from posting scripture because there are isolated verses that support both sides; I'd rather explore God's sovereignty from the point of view of the observing Christian, i.e. random Joe Blogs who is interested in Christ.
You are adding words, trashing commentaries, and avoiding what is written in the bible. I never said Satan is more powerful than God. That is preposterous.
When Satan tempted Jesus and offered all the Kingdoms of the world, he specifically said, "that were delivered to me". They were delivered to him from Adam. Jesus did not challenge him on it. Anyway, this discussion is going nowhere, I think your mind is made up. Peace...🙂
Consider his view of of a salvation where God is not Sovereign; how can Joe be sure that Christ has indeed "won" the victory? And what is the victory if Satan is actually in control. And what about the prayer question which I've put to you twice now but you have avoided both times; how can prayer work if God is not in control? In fact how can God be certain of anything temporal if he is not in control? And if he is not certain then how can Joe Blogs be certain? Furthermore if Satan is in control how can anyone become a Christian as he would not allow it.
You say that Satan is 'not more powerful than God', and yet God in your view God is not sovereign and therefore he not in control of the world. How can this be? Is God more powerful but allowing Satan to be in charge for a while? I can get this "because he knows his time is short". There is a difference between Satan having influence and being sovereign. And certainly our battle is not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers...etc, but does Calvary mean nothing other than Easter?
I respectfully hold God accountable for everything that happens on Earth as I believe he does himself, which is why he became human flesh and paid the price.
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
02 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterYes God answers prayer, the point you are missing is that, yes, I agree that God is ultimately Sovereign, but this is being confused with Righteousness.
It's only going nowhere if 'somewhere' is one of us 'winning'. These exchanges are useful, they require one to examine ones belief on a subject; no one has to change their mind on the topic in hand. I'm refraining from posting scripture because there are isolated verses that support both sides; I'd rather explore God's sovereignty from the point of view I believe he does himself, which is why he became human flesh and paid the price.
God gave Adam dominion in the beginning, Adam was deceived but "legally he transferred this gift to Satan. God being righteous cannot just take it back, thus His plan ala, Jesus Christ.
God will intervene when He is invited (prayer). Otherwise He would be overstepping his righteousness because the world is under Satan's control "legally". At least until Jesus reappears to claim what he has won.
That is why Satan had always tried to stop the promised seed of genesis 3:15, then having failed he tried to kill Jesus Christ Himself (the cross). Satan thought he had won, but this was part of the plan God had from the beginning.
Satan did not understand that God would raise Jesus from the dead. Now every Christian has Christ in them. That is why the bible says "greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."
Satan's time is short and he knows it. He bruised Jesus heel, but in the end Jesus will crush his head.
In the mean time, we are definitely to be in prayer. The bible commands us to. We should be in prayer fervently, for all sorts of things. Once we become Christians, Satan no longer has "legal" authority over us, because we belong to Jesus Christ.
This is a brief summary but there is plenty of scripture to verify it.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
10 Apr 13
2 edits
The role of Satan?
Satan seems to be for God a grand repository. With a creature like Satan God can gather up into one repository all the created beings He created who for some reason or another do not want God.
They all are gathered together under one grand opposition party headed by Satan. He is the nemesis of God temporarily. I do not know how long the ages past before he became this nemesis - anti God being.
It makes sense to me. In His foreknowledge God the Creator knew that some of the created beings would use their free will to unchoose God Himself as their God and Lord, King and Source of all blessing. They want nothing to do with Him.
To gather up all such beings in one great resevoir He allowed the highest created being - the Daystar [Latin Lucifer] to become His Nemesis.
Satan cannot be like God. So He can only be the antithesis of all that God is. In this allowance of God, in this providence of God God can gather up under one leader ALL the created beings who choose not to own the Creator of themselves as their God.
He collects them all together under the leadership of Satan and they share Satan's misrerable destiny.
Somehow, and I do not know how, this summation of all rebellion is effective for the rest of eternity.
But I do not understand that much.
10 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipGod created satan and knew exactly what would happen. It would seem your god is entirely responsible for what followed.
The role of Satan?
Satan seems to be for God a grand repository. With a creature like Satan God can gather up into one repository all the created beings He created who for some reason or another do not want God.
They all are gathered together under one grand opposition party headed by Satan. He is the nemesis of God temporarily. I do not know how l ...[text shortened]... f all rebellion is effective for the rest of eternity.
But I do not understand that much.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
10 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by OdBodSome would make that charge. However I see that the omnipotent God necessarily gave up some of that omnipotence in that creatures had free wills.
God created satan and knew exactly what would happen. It would seem your god is entirely responsible for what followed.
This is the all powerful God giving up some of that all power to make room for you and I to choose.
That God foreknew because He inhabits eternity can hardly be faulted of Him I think.
Do you at this moment feel COERCED to decide for or against receiving His love?
I am pretty sure that you feel a perfect freedom at this moment. You can turn your will to say you want Christ and you can turn your will to say you do not.
So blame against God for this ability He has bestowed upon you does not make sense.
Are you at this very moment being bludgeoned to disbelieve in Christ and His salvation ? Are you being FORCED to reject Christ at this moment ?
Of course you are not. And you are neither being forced to rebel if you choose to seek Him for salvation.
10 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by OdBodWe humans generally hold the one in charge responsible for what happens. I suppose you British hold your Prime Minister responsible for the ills of your nation, just as we hold our President responsible. But it all depends on our prejudices as to what degree.
God created satan and knew exactly what would happen. It would seem your god is entirely responsible for what followed.
In like manner, God can be held responsible for all the ills of the world according to our individual prejudices. I think God has answered that charge by dying on the cross as an atonement for all the sins that has ever happened and all that will ever happen.
Now, if man is in charge, what are you going to do about all the ills that happen every day? President Bush is no longer in charge so it is about time we stop blaming him for what president Obama is in charge of, don't you think? Who are you guys in Britian going to blame? And are you going to keep sitting around an complaining without doing anything to make it better?
10 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipThe bible is full of exact predictions,to suggest we have free will is nonsense . It may be the illusion of free will ,you cannot have free will and predetermination.
Some would make that charge. However I see that the omnipotent God necessarily gave up some of that omnipotence in that creatures had free wills.
This is the all powerful God giving up some of that all power to make room for you and I to choose.
That God foreknew because He inhabits eternity can hardly be faulted of Him I think.
Do you at this mo ...[text shortened]... not. And you are neither being[b] forced to rebel if you choose to seek Him for salvation.[/b]
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
10 Apr 13
4 edits
The bible is full of exact predictions,to suggest we have free will is nonsense . It may be the illusion of free will ,you cannot have free will and predetermination.
Minds have contemplated this matter for many centries. That is whether divine foreknowledge means an Moslem like predestinating of our every thought and action.
Ie. "Allah has willed it."
They have contemplated God's foreknowledge and predestination and free will.
And the bottom line for me is that I do not know that what you say is certain at all.
And frankly I think it is mostly seized upon as an excuse to not live unto God.
I don't want to hunt out an excuse to do that.
10 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipNever the less,it is a question that is never fully answered ,and to avoid addressing it ,is to ignor a fundamental and irreconcilable problem at the heart of belief in an omnipotent god.The bible is full of exact predictions,to suggest we have free will is nonsense . It may be the illusion of free will ,you cannot have free will and predetermination.
Minds have contemplated this matter for many centries. That is whether divine foreknowledge means an Moslem like predestinating of our every thought and action.
Ie. " ...[text shortened]... ed upon as an excuse to not live unto God.
I don't want to hunt out an excuse to do that.