Originally posted by twhiteheadI am certainly not suggesting that AA is a useless organisation, i have enormous respect for the work they do. What i am saying is that the amount of will-power required by some people to avoid repeated and self-destructive use of alcohol is inordinately greater than for others. And this is genetically determined. Many people have no problem with alcohol, can drink or not drink, can decide on a drink-by-drink basis whether they wish to have another, can see fairly clearly when a dependence upon alcohol is becoming destructive and self-destructive and take steps to control the abuse. Other people, however, dealt a different genetic hand but in the same society, will require almost superhuman efforts to resist the temptation of the bottle.
Clearly, addiction is biological in nature. Nevertheless, societies that do not consume alcohol (most notably Islamic societies) have lower incidences of alcoholism. The term 'nurture' refers in environmental influences which includes exposure to alcohol.
Humans that do suffer from alcoholism, can resist it as the AA can attest. To claim that anyone wh ...[text shortened]... cause of their genes, is to suggest that the AA is a useless organisation that achieves nothing.
All that said, I am largely in agreement with you, there is of course nothing to be gained from railing at god or the unfortunate nature of one's genes, and yes, it is possible for even the most hopeless alcoholic to resist the booze given enough support and good advice.
The point remains, the genetic predisposition towards alcoholism is very real. I am not aware of any reliable studies comparing rates of alcoholism among Islamic societies, but it has been shown that the incidence of alcoholism across the western world is remarkably uniform regardless of consumption of alcohol per head of population.
Returning to your point about the AA and alcoholics being able to resist alcohol; do you personally have any experience with somebody trying to give up alcoholism, or any other physical addiction? I do, and can assure you that the simple desire or will to not be an addict is nowhere near enough in many cases to carry one through the process of withdrawal, let alone to change the life of the sufferer to the point where they can consider living forever without their drug. Some genuine addicts can go through this and walk away, never to relapse - I suspect these people have become addicts simply through repeated abuse rather than through predisposition. Others, and I suspect these are the ones with the genetic issue, will struggle for the rest of their lives and relapse regularly.
29 Sep 16
Originally posted by avalanchethecatAnd I don't think anyone here disputes that.
I am certainly not suggesting that AA is a useless organisation, i have enormous respect for the work they do.
Returning to your point about the AA and alcoholics being able to resist alcohol; do you personally have any experience with somebody trying to give up alcoholism, or any other physical addiction?
No, I do not. Nor am I claiming that the AA has a one hundred percent success rate.
You seem to be putting forward two different opinions simultaneously: that we can do something about alcoholism and that we can't.
Originally posted by avalanchethecatHaving dealt with this is it powerful but it isn't limited to drugs and alcohol, even food can
I am certainly not suggesting that AA is a useless organisation, i have enormous respect for the work they do. What i am saying is that the amount of will-power required by some people to avoid repeated and self-destructive use of alcohol is inordinately greater than for others. And this is genetically determined. Many people have no problem with alc ...[text shortened]... he ones with the genetic issue, will struggle for the rest of their lives and relapse regularly.
cause addictions and because it is required for life is very hard to deal with. You can stop
taking drugs and drinking, but eating not so much. There are some diets where people are
to purge by eating only specific things for a couple of weeks, during that time withdraws
occur to those food items that cause cravings. They can feel very powerful as well.
29 Sep 16
Originally posted by KellyJayThe secret with food is to change the type of food you eat permanent, not just for a couple of weeks. The cravings go away with time. Alcoholism on the other hand is often a life long struggle, but again, putting yourself in a position where alcohol simply isn't readily available is the first step to take.
There are some diets where people are to purge by eating only specific things for a couple of weeks, during that time withdraws occur to those food items that cause cravings. They can feel very powerful as well.
29 Sep 16
Originally posted by avalanchethecatI have been to many AA meetings, have worked the steps of AA, have also gone on AA organized spiritual retreats. As I have brought up in the past, the 12 steps of AA are designed to help someone stop drinking, while adjusting their mentality......WITH the assistance of God.
I am certainly not suggesting that AA is a useless organisation, i have enormous respect for the work they do. What i am saying is that the amount of will-power required by some people to avoid repeated and self-destructive use of alcohol is inordinately greater than for others. And this is genetically determined. Many people have no problem with alc ...[text shortened]... he ones with the genetic issue, will struggle for the rest of their lives and relapse regularly.
The term 'higher power' is often used, but it becomes clear that God is the higher power. Just reading the steps proves this.
So when someone 'turns their will over to God' as in step 3, and it is genuine and real, but still relapses, it is different. Prayer was involved, God was involved, and yet...failure. At what point can a person determine when he is at fault, or is maybe being ignored by God?
I understand personally the difficulty of avoiding the bottle, and have come to disagree with AA because of the reliance upon God. It does more damage than good for faith.
29 Sep 16
Originally posted by twhiteheadI suppose I do hold two opinions simultaneously. It appears from my experiences with alcoholics and drug addicts that if one has the genetic predisposition towards alcoholism, then one can never be cured once one has formed the relationship. With good support and situation, one may be able to abstain for long periods between relapses, and possibly even abstain forever, but the dependency remains and is never far from the sufferer's mind even at the best of times. Conversely there are other addicts who, in my opinion, do not share the genetic predisposition, but who have managed to form a dependency regardless. These people, I believe, constitute the happy successes of programmes such as AA. For them, the 'demon' can be beaten quite comprehensively, although some vulnerability may always remain.
And I don't think anyone here disputes that.
[b]Returning to your point about the AA and alcoholics being able to resist alcohol; do you personally have any experience with somebody trying to give up alcoholism, or any other physical addiction?
No, I do not. Nor am I claiming that the AA has a one hundred percent success rate.
You seem to be pu ...[text shortened]... different opinions simultaneously: that we can do something about alcoholism and that we can't.[/b]
I do therefore think it is possible for some people to do something about their alcoholism. I also think that some people will find this extraordinarily difficult or even impossible, not because they lack the will for it, but because the compulsion for those people is just too powerful.
29 Sep 16
Originally posted by KellyJayI have not looked in depth at eating disorders, but I would not be surprised to find out that there was some element of physical addiction involved. I would be a bit surprised if somebody told me that it was demonstrably comparable to alcoholism though.
Having dealt with this is it powerful but it isn't limited to drugs and alcohol, even food can
cause addictions and because it is required for life is very hard to deal with. You can stop
taking drugs and drinking, but eating not so much. There are some diets where people are
to purge by eating only specific things for a couple of weeks, during that time withdraws
occur to those food items that cause cravings. They can feel very powerful as well.
29 Sep 16
Originally posted by chaney3I agree, I think rehabilitation is likely to be more effective if god is removed from the equation.
I have been to many AA meetings, have worked the steps of AA, have also gone on AA organized spiritual retreats. As I have brought up in the past, the 12 steps of AA are designed to help someone stop drinking, while adjusting their mentality......WITH the assistance of God.
The term 'higher power' is often used, but it becomes clear that God is the higher ...[text shortened]... e to disagree with AA because of the reliance upon God. It does more damage than good for faith.
Originally posted by avalanchethecatThese scientific studies and psycho analyses have only served to give people an excuse and the idea that someone else is to blame for their own failure and weakness - their alcoholism, their drug abuse, their overweight, their lack of social skills, chronic depression etc etc. In the last 50 years millions of pretty normal people have been diagnosed with some kind of medical condition and every failure is the fault of their parents, their genes, the society, the employer, the government, the atmosphere, advertising, large corporations, spouses, children . .. nobody takes responsibility. There is now even a gene that is responsible for people who are addicted to excessive shopping.
I am certainly not suggesting that AA is a useless organisation, i have enormous respect for the work they do. What i am saying is that the amount of will-power required by some people to avoid repeated and self-destructive use of alcohol is inordinately greater than for others. And this is genetically determined. Many people have no problem with alc ...[text shortened]... he ones with the genetic issue, will struggle for the rest of their lives and relapse regularly.
I say there is one gene that is responsible for all of these ailments and its the 'stupidity gene'. But saying that is only for people who have no desire to be politically correct.
So there are millions of people, mostly in the developed world who are on government assistance because they are believed to be suffering from some established medical condition. For 99% of these, this medical condition is all in their head, and its all there because these people have nothing to do. If you make these people exchange places with someone in a poverty stricken country/war torn area, for a year, where they have to get off their fat lazy butts and do something constructive, or starve to death, I can guarantee you that they will be instantly healed.
29 Sep 16
Originally posted by chaney3Perhaps you are going to emerge from your struggle one day both sober and a non-believer. It sounds as if the 'god element' in your efforts so far is being used as an excuse (and a source of self-pity and kind of vindication-in-failure) and this is doing your cause more harm than good.
So when someone 'turns their will over to God' as in step 3, and it is genuine and real, but still relapses, it is different. Prayer was involved, God was involved, and yet...failure. At what point can a person determine when he is at fault, or is maybe being ignored by God?
29 Sep 16
Originally posted by avalanchethecatThere are physical addictions to eating and I wouldn't even class it as 'eating disorders'. It is related to, but certainly not comparable in severity to alcoholism or drug addiction. There may be actual eating disorder that are comparable in severity, but the vast majority of obese people do not have such disorders. Many human behaviours involve cravings/desires that lead to behaviour contrary to what we might consider rational planned behaviour.
I have not looked in depth at eating disorders, but I would not be surprised to find out that there was some element of physical addiction involved. I would be a bit surprised if somebody told me that it was demonstrably comparable to alcoholism though.
29 Sep 16
Originally posted by avalanchethecatI think it probably varies from individual to individual. For some people religion helps with certain undesirable behaviour, for others it becomes and excuse.
I agree, I think rehabilitation is likely to be more effective if god is removed from the equation.
29 Sep 16
Originally posted by chaney3I honestly know very little about the AA and have never had an alcohol problem nor known someone with a serious alcohol problem.
I understand personally the difficulty of avoiding the bottle, and have come to disagree with AA because of the reliance upon God. It does more damage than good for faith.
If it isn't working for you then try something else. Certainly your tendency to place the blame elsewhere is not helpful. Placing blame at all may not be helpful. Why don't you focus more on your priorities and what you really want from life, then try and make some rational decisions about distancing yourself from the bottle. You mention that you loose all conscious control after the first drink, so you need to consciously make sure you do not ever have that first drink.
Talking of blame (and this is not about you), I have interacted with people that would behave very badly when drunk, then claim they were not responsible. My attitude is that the first time you do it, you may be excused, but if you do it twice then you cannot claim a lack of responsibility because you are responsible for getting drunk. I realise that they were not alcoholics and your situation is different.
29 Sep 16
Originally posted by FMFThe 'god element' regarding sobriety is not something that I created. AA teaches from day one that you must admit being 'powerless' over alcohol, and that your own will power is of little or no use. Your 'power' to become sane, and sober must come from God. That implication is staggering! Because it not only demands that you believe in God, but that He will actually intercede and answer your prayer for help.
Perhaps you are going to emerge from your struggle one day both sober and a non-believer. It sounds as if the 'god element' in your efforts so far is being used as an excuse (and a source of self-pity and kind of vindication-in-failure) and this is doing your cause more harm than good.
The dilemma is that in these teachings, God must help, because your life depends on it.
My issue has always been that I don't believe in a 'demand' for answered prayer, which is why I no longer attend AA.
I don't blame God for my failure, like I am being accused of here, I actually blame AA for forcing the theory of being powerless, with the burden of being healed put squarely on God's shoulders.
I didn't create the program, the theory or the steps. I just tried my best to follow what they taught, and failed.