27 Aug 14
Originally posted by RJHindsVery close! It is no different than water will not rise above its source.
I believe the idea is that it is the motive of the heart of the person that God uses to declare the works good or acceptable. God considered the sacrifice of Abel to be more acceptable than Cain's. Jesus considered the penny given by the widow woman greater than thousands of dollars given by some others.
We are sinful before God, corrupt, beyond hope on our own.
In that state nothing we can do will be good enough, it is all as filthy rags.
The only thing that redeems us is Jesus Christ, from there we walk with the
Lord in the Spirit He gives us. It is all God who redeems, He even cleans up
our works.
Kelly
27 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999So is casting out devils, a good work, or a bad work?
In the opening post I explained why Matt 7 does not fit your doctrine. I said:
[b]Christ is saying here that these peoples works were NOT GOOD as they are WORKERS OF INIQUITY.
You on the other hand are saying that the peoples works are GOOD but Christ still rejected them.
You are not repeating what the Bible says but adding your little assumpti ...[text shortened]... L WORKERS.
It is NOT as you say ie that their works were GOOD but CHrist still rejected them.[/b]
Is well just go down the list, are the things they said they did, good or bad?
Not the people mind you, the works! We both agree Jesus called them
workers of iniquity.
Kelly
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Still waiting on you to respond.
So in summary:
Christians are in the Spirit.
Non Christians are in the flesh
Christians do good works that count
Non Christians good works do not count.
By the way, that Matt 7 passage you keep quoting does not support your doctrine.
I'll add to your points below, yes, God gives His Holy Spirit to those that
accept Christ and turn their lives over to Him. Those that do not do that
do not get God's Spirit. They remain as they are walking out their lives
in the power of their flesh nothing more, unless Satan helps them towards
whatever ends.
Kelly
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by KellyJayThat you can ask questions like these is proof to me that you do not understand the teachings of Christ.
So is casting out devils, a good work, or a bad work?
Is well just go down the list, are the things they said they did, good or bad?
Not the people mind you, the works! We both agree Jesus called them
workers of iniquity.
Kelly
Read the story of the Good Samaritan.
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by KellyJayAccording to Romans 8, if God has given you his Holy Spirit or if you have the Spirit of Christ in you, then you are not supposed to sin. You are supposed to be a new person living a new life of righteousness and good works.
Still waiting on you to respond.
I'll add to your points below, yes, God gives His Holy Spirit to those that
accept Christ and turn their lives over to Him. Those that do not do that
do not get God's Spirit. They remain as they are walking out their lives
in the power of their flesh nothing more, unless Satan helps them towards
whatever ends.
Kelly
If however you continue on with sin [or evil works] after receiving these gifts from God and after having your eyes opened then there are dire consequences to face. We have been through that already.
However I notice that some Christians have found a loophole by twisting Romans 8. In not sure you are in that group. Here is what they do. Romans 8 is used to claim the following:
- Christians have the spirit of Christ in them therefore they cannot sin
- since they still have their fleshly bodies, then they have two parts to them 1. the Spirit and 2. the flesh.
- they cannot sin in the Spirit
- they can sin only in the flesh
- therefore their flesh will pay for whatever sins they commit
- their spirit is saved and saved eternally and they cannot lose their salvation.
But Paul was clear that threre are some who were converted, given HS gifts, tasted the good things to come and they fell away.
So, clearly these Christians either dont read or dont follow the Bible.
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm asking questions like this of you, because I understand scripture it is you
That you can ask questions like these is proof to me that you do not understand the teachings of Christ.
Read the story of the Good Samaritan.
I do not understand. It would be nice to get an answer from you even if it is
you quoting scripture and expounding on it so I can see your point of view.
This claim I lack understanding of scripture without pointing out my error with
the scripture and giving me a reading assignment is quite lazy on your part
and does me no good in either seeing my error or the truth as you believe
it to be.
Kelly
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999You are adding words to scripture, where in Romans 8 or any place in scripture
According to Romans 8, if God has given you his Holy Spirit or if you have the Spirit of Christ in you, then you are not supposed to sin. You are supposed to be a new person living a new life of righteousness and good works.
If however you continue on with sin [or evil works] after receiving these gifts from God and after having your eyes opened then the ...[text shortened]... and they fell away.
So, clearly these Christians either dont read or dont follow the Bible.
do you see if you get the Holy Spirit "then you are not supposed to sin" that
is not something I have said, I have maintained that you are not supposed to
sin, PERIOD. Having the Holy Spirit brings God into our lives, making you
part of His kingdom where He can lead you into the good works He has called
us into.
So I ask you to refrain from debating words I have not used or are not in
scripture I have not quoted. Stick to the text and points I have made or
the ones you believe in that you disagree with me on. This bringing up a
point I have not made to refute is meaningless.
Kelly
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by KellyJayYou are asking me to identify what are good works. The answer is only Christ knows that.
I'm asking questions like this of you, because I understand scripture it is you
I do not understand. It would be nice to get an answer from you even if it is
you quoting scripture and expounding on it so I can see your point of view.
This claim I lack understanding of scripture without pointing out my error with
the scripture and giving me a reading a ...[text shortened]... art
and does me no good in either seeing my error or the truth as you believe
it to be.
Kelly
Two people can appear to do exactly the same thing to the human eye but Christ knows which one is good and which is not good.
31 Aug 14
Originally posted by KellyJaySo is this in the Bible ?
You are adding words to scripture, where in Romans 8 or any place in scripture
do you see if you get the Holy Spirit "then you are not supposed to sin" that
is not something I have said, I have maintained that you are not supposed to
sin, PERIOD. Having the Holy Spirit brings God into our lives, making you
part of His kingdom where He can lead you into ...[text shortened]... disagree with me on. This bringing up a
point I have not made to refute is meaningless.
Kelly
..Having the Holy Spirit brings God into our lives, making you
part of His kingdom
03 Sep 14
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999Well yes, we agree there too! I put it to you that you must have Christ in
You are asking me to identify what are good works. The answer is only Christ knows that.
Two people can appear to do exactly the same thing to the human eye but Christ knows which one is good and which is not good.
your life guiding you, than you can do those things He wants, and if you do
not, well you cannot please God that way.
Kelly
03 Sep 14
Originally posted by KellyJayI see you keep saying this:
Well yes, we agree there too! I put it to you that you must have Christ in
your life guiding you, than you can do those things He wants, and if you do
not, well you cannot please God that way.
Kelly
.. "..I put it to you that you must have Christ in
your life guiding you, than you can do those things He wants, and if you do
not, well you cannot please God that way.
But Im not seeing that in the Bible.
The Bible is full of examples of people who acted according to their own conscience and what they did was pleasing to God. Maybe you can say that God gives people a conscience to know right from wrong and yes I will agree that God or Christ is guiding them in that way.
To claim that only when you accept Christ only then can good works proceed, that I disagree with. Im still waiting for references to support that.
If you do manage to find references then I can preemptively state that the story of the Good Samaritan runs contrary to that notion. Christ in that story apart from showing what it means to love your neighbour is also showing that outward appearances of righteousness, like the Priest and Levite in the story must of displayed, counts for nothing. It is the right action which counts [and you agree with that]. The Samaritans did not know Christ the way you define 'knowing Christ. How do you explain Christ use of a man who knows nothing of him as an example of righteousness or good works?
03 Sep 14
Originally posted by Rajk999I owe you scripture, when I have time I'll give them to you.
I see you keep saying this:
.. "..I put it to you that you must have Christ in
your life guiding you, than you can do those things He wants, and if you do
not, well you cannot please God that way.
But Im not seeing that in the Bible.
The Bible is full of examples of people who acted according to their own conscience and what they did was ...[text shortened]... plain Christ use of a man who knows nothing of him as an example of righteousness or good works?
Kelly
04 Sep 14
Originally posted by Rajk999To begin with, I'm not nor have I ever said a good work was not a good
I see you keep saying this:
.. "..I put it to you that you must have Christ in
your life guiding you, than you can do those things He wants, and if you do
not, well you cannot please God that way.
But Im not seeing that in the Bible.
The Bible is full of examples of people who acted according to their own conscience and what they did was ...[text shortened]... plain Christ use of a man who knows nothing of him as an example of righteousness or good works?
work. Doing good is always better than doing evil, the point I stressed
was that God cannot and will not be pleased with anyone who is in the
flesh. Jesus was making a point on who was a neighbor to the guy on the
road, no one is going to get by on titles or lables, so we can call ourselves
Christian, but if we are not obeying God, what good is it?
What happens when we accept Christ we joined with Him, we become
one with Him. This is not true for those that reject or ignore Him! Look
at what Jesus said to Saul while Saul was on the road to Damascus.
Acts 9:
"3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
Who was it that Saul was persecuting, those that had accepted Jesus
into their lives! Saul didn't go into heaven to persecute Jesus, Saul was
attacking believers, the Christians, or those of the Way since I don't think
that the term Christain had been used yet to describe believers.
You know as well as I that Jesus takes that very seriously, more than
one place in scripture Jesus talks about if we have done it to the least of
His, we have done it unto Him. If all required was good works be saved,
why bother having Jesus go to the cross? Since Jesus wasn't enough,
the law should have been all that was required. Jesus blood is required
and like when the angel of death was moving through Eygpt, he only
passed by those covered by the blood. Those that reject or ignore it do
not have the blood over their lives.
Kelly