Ricahrd Dawkins is wrong

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
any parent that will not mourn the passing of his child is a bastard.
any human that will not feel empathy over the passing of another is seriously messed up.

this is what i know for certain. kind of like how you know for certain earth is trillions of years old

This earth is not trillions of years old, but it is actually 2.3 billion years old.

But the cosmos goes through cycles of creation and annihilation for the entire life of Lord Brahma which is 311 trillion years.

The Vedic teachings are eternal, and every time the cosmos becomes manifest every 4.3 billion years, the Vedic teachings are given to mankind.

So in this sense the Vedic teachings are 311 trillion years old if you only take into account this one life of Lord Brahma.

But don,t be too concerned about all this time stuff, because its not important for you to know, if you dont even realize you are a spiritual being.

It is more important for you to understand who you are first, before you worry about the age of the universe.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
This earth is not trillions of years old, but it is actually 2.3 billion years old.

But don,t be too concerned about all this time stuff, because its not important for you to know, if you dont even realize you are a spiritual being.

It is more important for you to understand who you are first, before you worry about the age of the universe.

2.3 billion of years, you say? Hmm. How did you came up with this specific number? Do you totally disregard the Hubble's Law, and COBE observations?

The age of the Universe is very much important for cosmologists and others. Oerhaps not for you, but you are not the center of the Universe anyway.

Worried, me? I know enough of who I am. I'm more interested about the Universe as it is.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
2.3 billion of years, you say? Hmm. How did you came up with this specific number? Do you totally disregard the Hubble's Law, and COBE observations?

The age of the Universe is very much important for cosmologists and others. Oerhaps not for you, but you are not the center of the Universe anyway.

Worried, me? I know enough of who I am. I'm more interested about the Universe as it is.

Calculation of time (SB 3.11.1-12) just for Fabian Fnas see the last line please

The atomic description of the Srimad Bhagavatam is almost the same as that of modern science. This is further described in the Paramanu-vada of Kanada. Time is measured in terms of its covering a certain space of atoms. Standard time is calculated in terms of the movement of the sun. The time covered by the sun in passing over an atom is calculated as atomic time.

Two atoms
Three double atoms
Three hexatoms

One hundred trutis
Three vedas
Three lavas
Three nimesas
Five ksanas
Fifteen kasthas
Fifteen laghus
Two dandas
Six to seven dandas
Fifteen days and nights
Two fortnights - a double atom
- a hexatom (a particle visible in sunshine)
- a truti or 18 atomic particles, or one second
divided in 16,875 parts.
- one veda
- one lava
- one nimesa
- one ksana
- one kastha or 8 seconds
- one laghu or 2 minutes
- one (nadika-danda) or 30 minutes
- one muhurta or one hour
- one prahara or quarter of a day
- two weeks or a fortnight
- one month
During the period of one month the moon wanes and is called krsna-paksa, the dark moon or amavasya. In the same month the moon waxes and is called gaura-paksa or sukla-paksa, the full moon or purnima. Thus purnima to amavasya is called krsna-paksa (dark moon) and amavasya to purnima is called sukla-paksa (bright moon). Two months equal one season. During the first six months the sun travels from south to north (uttarayana). During the second six months the sun travels from north to south (daksinayana). Two solar movements equal one day and night of the demigods.

Four cosmic ages (yugas)

When explaining the various measurements of time, Vishnu Purana (1.3), Srimad Bhagavatam (3.11.18-39), Bhagavad-gita (8.17), Vayu Purana (chapter 57) and others, such as the Mahabharata (Shanti Parva, 231.12-20), all agree on the measurements of the durations of the yugas, as explained below.

One cycle of the four yugas together is 12,000 years of the devas called divine years. Each of these years is composed of 360 days, and each of their days is equal to one human year. So Krta-yuga is 4000 divine years in length, Treta-yuga is 3000 divine years in length, Dvapara-yuga is 2000 divine years in length, and Kali-yuga is 1000 divine years long, with the addition of the conjoining portions of the sandhya and sandhyamsa. Each yuga is preceded by a period called a sandhya, which is as many hundred years in length as there are thousands of years in that particular yuga. Each yuga is also followed by a period of time known as a sandhyamsa of the same length. In between these periods of time is the actual yuga.

Krta or Satya-yuga (Golden Age)

Duration - 4,800 demigods years (4000 + 400 sandhya + 400 sandhyamsa)
or 1,728,000 human years
Life span - 100,000 years (Brahma vaivarta Purana 4.90.12, SB 4.12.13: Dhruva Maharaja ruled for 36,000 years)
Yuga-dharma (SB 12.3.52 lists all yuga dharmas) - meditation or astanga yoga
Yuga-avatara - white with four arms, has matted hair and wears a garment of tree bark. He carries a black deerskin, a sacred thread, prayer beads and the rod and waterpot of a brahmacari. (SB 11.5.21)

Symptoms of Satya-yuga: The people are peaceful, non-envious, friendly and naturally Krsna conscious. In Satya-yuga there was no division of asrama, everyone was a paramahamsa. There was no demigod worship, only the worship of Krsna and religion was perfectly practiced. (SB 9.14, 11.5.21-22)

Treta-yuga (Silver Age)

Duration - 3,600 demigod years (3000 + 300 sandhya + 300 sandhyamsa)
or 1,296,000 human years
Life span - 10,000 years (SB 5.17.12)
Yuga-dharma - Fire sacrifice (yajna)
Yuga-avatara - red with four arms and golden hair. He wears a triple belt representing initiation into the three Vedas. His symbols are the sruk, sruva, etc. (ladle, spoon and other implements of sacrifice).

Symptoms of Treta-yuga: In Treta-yuga the people are thoroughly religious. In Satya-yuga people are naturally Krsna conscious. In Treta-yuga they are inclined to become Krsna conscious. To achieve that end they are very strict in following Vedic principles.

Dvapara-yuga (Copper Age)

Duration - 2,400 demigod years (2000 + 200 sandhya + 200 sandhyamsa)
or 864,000 human years
Life span - 1,000 years
Yuga-dharma - Temple worship (arcana)
Yuga-avatara - his complexion is dark blue. He wears yellow garments. His body is marked with Srivatsa and other distinctive ornaments, and He manifests His personal weapons.

The original Personality of Godhead from whom all other incarnations expand is Sri Krsna. He appears once in a day of Brahma, during the period of the seventh Manu (Vaivasvata) in the 28th divya-yuga. The original Personality of Godhead Krsna only comes once in a day of Brahma. Although in every Dvapara-yuga there is a yuga-avatara, they are all expansions of Visnu, who is an expansion of Sri Krsna.

Symptoms of Dvapara-yuga: In Dvapara-yuga people have the weaknesses of mortal beings, but they have a strong desire to know about the Absolute Truth and they worship the Lord in the mood of honoring a great king, following the prescriptions of both Vedas and tantras.

Kali-yuga (Iron Age)

Duration - 1,200 demigod years (1000 + 100 sandhya + 100 sandhyamsa)
or 432,000 human years
Life span - 100 years (or 50, SB 12.2.11)
Yuga-dharma - Chanting the Hare Krsna mahamantra (harinama sankirtana)
Yuga-avatara - golden or yellow but generally black. Lord Caitanya, who is Krsna Himself, appears only in the Kali-yuga immediately following the appearance of Sri Krsna in Dvapara-yuga.

Symptoms of Kali-yuga: "O learned one in the age of Kali, men have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and above all, always disturbed." (SB 1.1.10)

The four yugas are known as a divya-yuga, or maha-yuga. One divya-yuga is 12,000 years of the demigods (4,320,000 human years). One thousand divya-yugas equals one day of Brahma (4,320,000,000 human years).

In each Brahma's day there are fourteen Manus (patriarchs of mankind). Each Manu enjoys a life of seventy-one divya-yugas or 852,000 years of the demigods (306,720,000 human years). After the dissolution of every Manu a new Manu comes. With the change of Manu the universal management also changes. Each manvantara is preceded and followed by the yuga-sandhya in length of one Satya-yuga. The yuga-sandhyas are periods of partial devastation and creation.

Brahma's life consists of 36,000 days and nights (of the same length), or 311,040,000,000,000 human years.

We live in Kali-yuga of the 28th divya-yuga of the 7th Manu of the 12th kalpa (called Sveta-Varaha) (SB 2.10.46p., Skanda P. 2.39-42), in the 51th year of Brahma. The beginning of this kalpa was 2.3 billion years ago (453 mahayugas back).

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Calculation of time (SB 3.11.1-12) just for Fabian Fnas

The atomic description of the Srimad Bhagavatam is almost the same as that of modern science. This is further described in the Paramanu-vada of Kanada. Time is measured in terms of its covering a certain space of atoms. Standard time is calculated in terms of the movement of the sun. The time cove ...[text shortened]... year of Brahma. The beginning of this kalpa was 2.3 billion years ago (453 mahayugas back).

So no scieentific explanation then? Just a religious guessing? Nothing more?

You missed totally my other qeustions:
(1) Do you totally disregard the Hubble's Law,
(2) and COBE observations?

Just want to know...

Originally posted by FabianFnas
So no scieentific explanation then? Just a religious guessing? Nothing more?

You missed totally my other qeustions:
(1) Do you totally disregard the Hubble's Law,
(2) and COBE observations?

Just want to know...

If the Hubble,s law and the COBE cant get me back to Godhead in the spiritual world, then its worthless. to me and everyone else.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
If the Hubble,s law and the COBE cant get me back to Godhead in the spiritual world, then its worthless. to me and everyone else.

What's wrong with Hubble's law? What's wrong with the COBE observations?

Science that doesn't confirm your religion is wrong? Who are you to think you are the center of Universe? If Universe doesn't obey your opinion, then the Universe must be wrong? Rethink...

There are plenty of observations of a Universe older than 4.3 billion of years. Are all these observations wrong?

A question: Do you accept the scientific atomic theory?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
He copied the text from an article by Deepak Chopra, in which Chopra 'debunks' the Dawkins 'God Delusion' book.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Holistic-Living/2007/02/Debunking-The-God-Delusion-Part-1.aspx

I certainly don't agree with absolutely everything Dawkins does or says but, never the less, what a horrible load of straw man arguments and twisted logic against Dawkins.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
If the Hubble,s law and the COBE cant get me back to Godhead in the spiritual world, then its worthless. to me and everyone else.

“....If the Hubble,s law and the COBE cant get me back to Godhead in the spiritual world, then its WORTHLESS. to me and everyone else. ...” (my emphasis)

That's a very strange statement to make. You appear to be implying here that we should judge the truth or falsity of a scientific hypothesis NOT on the evidence nor using reason but, rather, on its “ WORTH” and, not any kind of 'worth', but, specifically, some kind of 'religious' 'worth'.
So we shouldn't judge the truth or falsity of a scientific hypothesis rationally on the evidence nor using reason?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think it has both good and bad aspects. I think Dawkins highlighted for me some of the less desirable aspects that I had underestimated or overlooked.

but I argue perhaps that a "healthy" majority of moderates; though they legitimise (indirectly) their fundamentalist counterparts, they also serve to marginalise their outrageous beliefs by virtue alive.
Are you saying you'd rather people be moderates than fundamentalist, then I agree.

My argument here uses the assumption (can't substantiate this) there will always be some lower bound K = aN (out of a population N where Christianity (for example) is the dominant religion with a < 1) that will subscribe to some sort of superstition or religious belief etc... of which x < K are fundamentalist Christians (and perhaps other supersitions like astrology and such), and y = K-x are either moderate Christians or hold some other belief.
As for Christianity, one might be able to reason some of the moderates out of their faith (if that's what one wishes to do, and is persistent enough), but I claim there is a far greater number of theists that will not give up their faith. If you can successfully argue that a moderate position of belief is completely untenable with science, then (not out of spite) it may well turn out that certainly the lesser educated would instead adopt a fundamentalist flavour instead of their at one time moderate position and reject science wherever conflicts arise (making the x mentioned above bigger, and of course y smaller).

You say that religions which consist almost entirely of fundamentalists don't last long; is this true when
a) that religion competes with another well established religion which includes moderates?
b) or is this true when that religion (almost entirely fundamentalists) is the only significantly subscribed religion?

I can't really say I've seen any evidence of (b).

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Yes, I see your point, and I guess some of my words were somewhat over bearing.

And I didn't actually say I dont care if my children died in a nuclear blast,..... but I did say I dont care if everyone was incinerated this second, because everyone includes me as well, see the difference.

I can easily say that the passing of my child, does not affec ...[text shortened]... life is to regain our dormant affection with God, and return back home to the spiritual world.

So for you, it's ok that a giant asteroid killed the dinosaurs 65 million years ago and that was only one extinction event, some killing 95% of all life. So what does god say to those extinct life forms? "Don't fret, we are preparing the way for some really advanced beings, humans!" So according to your philosophy, dinosaurs didn't actually go extinct, they just popped up in a microsecond on some other planet in the cosmos?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes tell that to the millions who have been helped to overcome all manner of ills because of their religion, while the gods of atheism remain utterly impotent, what a noob of a comment, you and Samuel Butler need your bums felt to bring you back to reality.

Reality? Strange choice of word.

Perhaps not as strange as the number of churches that get destroyed whenever there is an earthquake, killing the faithful inside.

If there is a God, he has a weird sense of humour.

Steve Jobs came up with a good line. No one wants to die, not even those that hope to go to heaven want to die to get there.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
I didn't actually say I dont care if my children died in a nuclear blast,..... but I did say I dont care if everyone was incinerated this second, because everyone includes me as well, see the difference.

Do I see the difference? No.

In fact, to me, this I don't care if my children die prematurely as long as I die too thing of yours brings to mind some kind of suicide pact mentality, which links to the death cult feel of your recent posts. So, no, I don't see any significant difference.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So for you, it's ok that a giant asteroid killed the dinosaurs 65 million years ago and that was only one extinction event, some killing 95% of all life. So what does god say to those extinct life forms? "Don't fret, we are preparing the way for some really advanced beings, humans!" So according to your philosophy, dinosaurs didn't actually go extinct, they just popped up in a microsecond on some other planet in the cosmos?

Its impossible to kill life, because life is eternal and indestructible.

You can only loose the body (at death) and the soul continues on.

Dinosaurs are not extinct, but as you say they are elsewhere, because the conditions at the time could not support them here.

Advanced human beings have been existing before this current time, and before the dinosaurs., because the cosmos goes through cycles of annihilation and creation, over and over again.

Originally posted by John W Booth
Do I see the difference? No.

In fact, to me, this I don't care if my children die prematurely as long as I die to thing of yours brings to mind some kind of suicide pact mentality, which links to the death cult feel of your recent posts. So, no, I don't see any significant difference.

Why are you brining up suicide and death cults......you are reading between the lines and fabricating.

Its a dishonest tactic, that struggles to discredit, that which is credible.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Why are you brining up suicide and death cults......you are reading between the lines and fabricating.

No, that is not so. I am responding to your posts, to the assertions in your posts, to the words and statements that are in plain view on several pages going back on this thread. Do you want to just make statements and have no one comment?