06 Jun 12
Originally posted by galveston75I disagree with RJ LOL there really is only one throne. In Revelation it appears as if the Lamb is seen in or at the center of the throne. Don't quite understand that because it's hard to visualize but it's just going to turn into an argument about the triune nature of God of which human words fail.
So there will be a time when Jesus leaves the throne that is beside his Father in heaven and will come down to earth to a second throne?
Could you post the scriptures that says this as all the scriptures I can find on Jesus sitting on a throne are all in heaven beside his Father? No where can I find it stated that he will leave his Father and come to sit on a second throne.
Manny
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by menace71Yes it could turn into an arguement but let's don't let it. But yes the trinity is a little bit of a problem for this because it makes it kind of hard on know where to place God the Father and Jesus the son in this picture. As in who is where and where are they sitting in power. Are they both in heaven or does one come down and the other stay up there? If they are the same being why does Revelation say there is two trones and one is in subjection to the other and where is the holy spirit in all this and why doesn't it have a throne?
I disagree with RJ LOL there really is only one throne. In Revelation it appears as if the Lamb is seen in or at the center of the throne. Don't quite understand that because it's hard to visualize but it's just going to turn into an argument about the triune nature of God of which human words fail.
Manny
So it appears to be making this puzzle a little hard to put together.
But that's not what this thread is about so we'll do the best we can to figure it all out.
06 Jun 12
3 edits
Originally posted by menace71
I concur with this seems logical and I did not think about the seed of the Women
Manny
I concur with this seems logical and I did not think about the seed of the Women
In some ways it is not an easy interpretation to accept. I got convinced that more than just Israel was symbolized by the Woman because the placement of the three astronomical bodies - sun, moon, and stars seemed rather particular.
I would say that those who restrict the meaning of the Woman to Israel should consider the details of the sun, moon, and stars, there and not simply ignore those symbols.
What helps is to consider how this vision hails back to Genesis 3:15-14. This vision of a universal bright woman of Revelation 12 borrows not only from Joseph's dream of Genesis 37:5-11 but ALSO from Genesis 3:14-15.
God pronounces judgment to the serpent and prophecy concerning emnity between the serpent and the woman Eve.
And Jehovah God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all the cattle and more than all the animals of the field ... And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He will bruise you on the head, but you will bruise him on the heel.
This vision shows the perpetual enmity between God's people and God's enemy Satan. And it is before the coming into existence of the nation Israel. In other words it is rather universal and pertaining to all people not aligned with Satan but awaiting God's salvation. Eve is the mother of all living.
And from all living some turn to God either in the dispensation before the law, or during the dispensation of the law, or in the age of grace, the church age.
Notice the details of Revelation and how they mirror the picture of enmity between Eve and the serpent -
"And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing and being in pain to bring forth.
And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child."
The theme is similar. No one has problem recognizing the serpent as quite related to Satan. Satan was a serpent, a smaller creature in Genesis, a subtle one. Here in Revelation 12 he has become much larger than a serpent and cruel. He is here called "a great red dragon". Red signifies the shedding of blood caused by Satan's murders (John 8:44)
This all-incompassing enmity between Satan and God's people covers all three major dispensations - from the patriarchs starting from Adam and Eve to Moses, then the saints of the age of the Law, then the saints of the age of the church. Israel is included in this Universal Bright Woman. But also included are the patriarchs prior to the formation of the nation of Israel and the new covenant church where the wall between Jew and Gentile is broken down to make "one new man".
The main purpose of this post was to reinforce the explanation of the Woman in Revelation 12 to mean the totality of God's believers from the beginning of man upon the earth to the end of the church age.
06 Jun 12
5 edits
Originally posted by galveston75
Yes it could turn into an arguement but let's don't let it. But yes the trinity is a little bit of a problem for this because it makes it kind of hard on know where to place God the Father and Jesus the son in this picture. As in who is where and where are they sitting in power. Are they both in heaven or does one come down and the other stay up there? I But that's not what this thread is about so we'll do the best we can to figure it all out.
Yes it could turn into an arguement but let's don't let it.
We may state our understandings respectfully. I think I will comment because it issue can be related with Revelation 12:1-7 I believe.
But yes the trinity is a little bit of a problem for this because it makes it kind of hard on know where to place God the Father and Jesus the son in this picture.
Some of the discussion about the throne and who is on it is rather natural and objective. These SIGNS (Rev. 1:1) by which the Revelation was made known touch profound matters also of subjective experience.
The singular THRONE is "the throne of God and of the Lamb" (Rev. 22:1) God is IN the Lamb. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (2 Cor. 4:19)
It is not only that God was ABOVE Christ and SENDING Christ. It is that organically, in life union, in the mingling of God and man as God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.
We should not be natural minded or superfiscial to consider how big the physical throne is. We should not consider natural thoughts like how can God and Jesus be side by side on that one throne. These are rather natural thoughts. We need a revelation that God indwells Christ the God-man.
The SIGN shown in Rev. 22:1 is of one throne. The God man Redeemer Jesus Christ is on the throne as the Lamb. And He is mingled with His Father. The incarnation of God as a man should be grasped in this SIGN.
Confirmation - "And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon that they should shine in it, for the glory of God illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb." (Rev. 21:23)
The Lamb - the Redeeming Savior, is a LAMP - "... and its lamp is the Lamb". Within the LAMP (the Lamb) is GOD as the LIGHT -
"for the glory of God illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb."
On the throne is Christ as a LAMP. Within Christ is His Father as the glory and the light. This is God IN Christ. This is Jehovah incarnated as the Redeemer. This is God become a man to carry out eternal redemption and enthonement to carry out Divine administration.
So it is not the THONES [plural] of God and the Lamb. It is the singular THRONE of God and of the Lamb. And God the glory and the light shine out from within Christ the Redeemer as the LAMP. He is the LAMB LAMP.
As in who is where and where are they sitting in power.
The authority and power here should be seen in the FLOWING OUT of the divine nature of God in the river of the water of life. And that is the Holy Spirit.
To ask where is the Holy Spirit sitting in the picture is too natural minded and superficial. And I do not mean this to be derogatory.
The water of divine life is being DISPENSED out from the throne of God and of the Lamb into the city. This means the Holy Spirit is God dispensing His life into the constituents of New Jerusalem. God is imparting God into them.
This vision of the water of life flowing out of the throne of God and of the Lamb should remind us of the Gospel of John -
"He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:38,39)
God's eternal purpose is to DISPENSE Himself into man.
God's plan is to install His throne within each of the inner beings of His redeemed people. He wants to live in man and rule man in the way of being mingled with man as the Son and the Father are also the mingling of God and humanity.
The THRONE of God He desires to install in the INNERMOST BEING of His people. That is why you have "out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water" in John 7. But in the scene in eternity it is out from the center of the CITY on the throne of God and of the Lamb the river of water of life flows.
This is still the Spirit as the Third of the Triune God. The innermost being of the saved God desires to make the center of the New Jerusalem. This is very profound. Each saved person's innermost being, his or her human spirit is in touch with the throne of God. And from out of their spirit God is flowing, dispensing, imparting Himself as their life.
When we are born again the river of the water of life begins to flow. It will consummate in a city called New Jerusalem. God wants to impart Himself into man to establish His administration from within man.
We must receive the Father INTO our being. We must receive the Father by receiving the Son, the Redeemer Jesus Christ. For God is IN Christ. Then God begins to dispense the Holy Spirit as the river of water of life by which we live. We live God. We do not simply live FOR God. We live GOD.
God wants man to live God and His Son Jesus LIVED God -
"As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he also who eats Me shall live because of Me." (John 6:56)
I stop here.
06 Jun 12
It seems everyone here has a different take on this as well as the rest of the book of Revelation as a whole.
So a few questions. With so many opinions and thoughts and ideas on what all this means, is it real, is it a parable, is it just strange a vision, is it partially real or some mixture of all these things?
Is it something we are to know or something we can just ignor like a Catholic priest told me one time at his door?
Is it even pertain to the present or is this something that will happen in some far off future?
Are we supposed to know what this book in the Bible is saying? Are we supposed to understand it? But more importantly does it affect us at all?
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by galveston75G-man that's part of your problem God is said to be omniscient right? Or do JW's not believe that ?
Yes it could turn into an arguement but let's don't let it. But yes the trinity is a little bit of a problem for this because it makes it kind of hard on know where to place God the Father and Jesus the son in this picture. As in who is where and where are they sitting in power. Are they both in heaven or does one come down and the other stay up there? I ...[text shortened]... But that's not what this thread is about so we'll do the best we can to figure it all out.
Manny
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by galveston75Do you fully understand the book of Revelation ?
It seems everyone here has a different take on this as well as the rest of the book of Revelation as a whole.
So a few questions. With so many opinions and thoughts and ideas on what all this means, is it real, is it a parable, is it just strange a vision, is it partially real or some mixture of all these things?
Is it something we are to know or so ...[text shortened]... ible is saying? Are we supposed to understand it? But more importantly does it affect us at all?
Manny
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by galveston75Perhaps he was just being diplomatic and didn't want you standing on his doorstep talking to him about Revelation.
Is [Revelation] something we are to know or something we can just ignor like a Catholic priest told me one time at his door??
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by galveston75The Book of Revelation is a vision in synbolic terms of future events. We will not understand this vision completely until it takes place and some of us want understand it even then. So the Priest may have been giving you good advice. You have more important things in life to deal with than worry about future events that you have no control over and may never take place in your life time. I suggest you just cool it, like the priest is suggesting also in his own way.
It seems everyone here has a different take on this as well as the rest of the book of Revelation as a whole.
So a few questions. With so many opinions and thoughts and ideas on what all this means, is it real, is it a parable, is it just strange a vision, is it partially real or some mixture of all these things?
Is it something we are to know or so ...[text shortened]... ible is saying? Are we supposed to understand it? But more importantly does it affect us at all?
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by menace71No we don't fully as there are still issues and events that haven't happened. If we stated we understood it all that would be stepping ahead of Jehovah and assuming. He lets us learn in his time, not ours.
Do you fully understand the book of Revelation ?
Manny
But he does teach and with the Bible clearly explaining that his people would be of one mind and one belief, there would be some on earth that would understand what he shows us and we would all be in agreement. Not our words but the Bible's.
As seen here everyone that has posted has a different view and the Bible is clear that it is not open to ones own opinions or interpretations. Right?
That is not they way God works and that is not they reason the Bible was written. It was written to understand and to direct his people to life.
And there may actually be parts we will not fully understand until after all the events in Revelation have been completed and then we would be able to look back and see how the things in Revelation did work out and make sence.
So no we don't fully know all that is said here but we know most.
But that does not admit any kind of failier. Man is constantly learning on all levels of science, health, etc. So just because we don't know all there is to know on those subjects does not mean we've failed.
06 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFSo you were there and asked him? Not even close buddy. It was a long discussion on many subjects but he flatly said he did not want to discuss that book and never uses it in his services. He said it is not meant for us to understand..............
Perhaps he was just being diplomatic and didn't want you standing on his doorstep talking to him about Revelation.
How sad to have a man that was supposedly taught by this BIG religious powerhouse and he obviously learned very little about this very important book in the Bible and has taken the position of leading his flock to some supposed eternal life? Right.
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by RJHindsLol...are you serious? Really? Ok you go ahead and cool it with what this book is teaching us and just float along. How blind can one person be? This is the best yet to come out of your brain. Lol, Lol Lol................
The Book of Revelation is a vision in synbolic terms of future events. We will not understand this vision completely until it takes place and some of us want understand it even then. So the Priest may have been giving you good advice. You have more important things in life to deal with than worry about future events that you have no control over and may n ...[text shortened]... your life time. I suggest you just cool it, like the priest is suggesting also in his own way.
Also you just said this is a "symbolic book of visions" but yet you think this 345 mile high city is real and will sit down on this planet like a borg cube. Oh my gosh!!!!!!!!!!
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by galveston75Maybe he thinks - as quite a few people do, I gather - that Revelation shouldn't have been included in the biblical canon.
So you were there and asked him? Not even close buddy. It was a long discussion on many subjects but he flatly said he did not want to discuss that book and never uses it in his services. He said it is not meant for us to understand..............
How sad to have a man that was supposedly taught by this BIG religious powerhouse and he obviously learned very little about this very important book in the Bible.