12 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by RBHILLBoth religions consider Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Whether you like it or not, by definition, they are Christians. How very sad for you. In the meantime, it must be less than gratifying to know you commit a mortal sin every day of your life by exhibiting vanity and pride in your faith.
A Mormon who became a Born Again Christian Says that they believe that they will be God's someday.
A JW said that they believe that Jesus is not part of a Trinity nor is Jesus God.
12 Sep 05
Originally posted by RBHILLD'you hear that, No1? As soon as you personally accept Jeebus as your Sayveor, all the ridiculous contradictions and foolish premises will be warshed away from you like that pesky orginal sin! What on Earth are youse waiting for? Hally - lew - yah!
Once you personally accept Christ as your savior you will understand but untill then you won't.
ps - Your official decoder ring comes by mail later. 6-8 weeks.
12 Sep 05
6 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderThe fact that articles of their dogma vary from some amorphous definition of "mainstream Christianity" in a BBC website, does not make them non-Christians.
The fact that articles of their dogma vary from some amorphous definition of "mainstream Christianity" in a BBC website, does not make them non-Christians. They believe in the divinity of Christ and the truth of his teachings, so I would say they are Christians whatever the doctrinal differences. A minority of Christians believe in pre-destination, so ...[text shortened]... plistic way you and RBHILL are presenting their faith to discredit it is worthy of contempt.[/b]
I have not yet addressed the question of whether I think they are Christians or not (I think they are not). But it seems clear to me that there are as many differences between Mormonism and Christianity as there are between Christianity and Judaism that the most reasonable position to take would be that Mormonism is a different religion altogether.
And what is wrong with the BBC website, pray tell? At least we know it is a reasonably factual, unbiased view of both Christianity and Mormonism.
They believe in the divinity of Christ and the truth of his teachings, so I would say they are Christians whatever the doctrinal differences.
Of course, going by the dictionary definition of Christian as "follower of Christ", even an atheist who thinks Christ was a good man who had some good teachings and strives to live by them is a Christian; but that doesn't square up with common sense, does it?
You and RBHILL are using the term "Gods" in the popular way when the Mormons seem to be using it in a specialized way meaning that a certain few will have a more favored place in Heaven i.e. hanging out with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Since they are not claiming that these few will be equal to "God", the simplistic way you and RBHILL are presenting their faith to discredit it is worthy of contempt.
Before you shower contempt on myself and RBHill (bad grammar notwithstanding), why don't you read what the Mormon Presidents had to say on the matter?
"First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another.
In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible." - Joseph Smith Jr., 1st President (The King Follett Discourse, Times and Seasons, 5 (15 August 1844): 612-17)†
"Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves--to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done--by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." (ibid.)
“As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be.” - Lorenzo Snow, 5th President. ( The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, ed. Clyde J. Williams [1984], 1.)*
Remember, the President of the LDS is also a "prophet of God"‡ and will never "send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord"§.
Now, I'm not arguing that the Mormons teach that men will have equal stature or dignity as God (any more than a son will be of equal stature as the father - at least in cultures where parents are still revered). However, it is quite clear that men will become Gods in the same way or manner as God (or to be more technical - will be of the same species as God). This is no mere "favoured place" they're talking about here.
I've quoted from two sources:
- The official LDS website
- The full text of the King Follett Discourse from the Brigham Young University (a Mormon University) website.
Still think RBHill and I are presenting their faith in a "simplistic" way?
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References:
† http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm
* http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/presidents/controllers/potcController.jsp?leader=5&topic=quotes
‡ http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/history/0,15486,3943-1-2104,00.html
§ Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th President. (“Eternal Keys and the Right to Preside,” Ensign, July 1972, 88.) http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/presidents/controllers/potcController.jsp?leader=10&topic=quotes
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Cheers,
LH
12 Sep 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerIs there any significant difference from saying In that sense, "they're probably even less Christian than the Jehovah's Witnesses" and saying they are non-Christian?
[b]The fact that articles of their dogma vary from some amorphous definition of "mainstream Christianity" in a BBC website, does not make them non-Christians.
I never said they were non-Christians.
And what is wrong with the BBC website, pray tell? At least we know it is a reasonably factual, unbiased view of both Christianity and Mormonis ...[text shortened]... chhistory/presidents/controllers/potcController.jsp?leader=10&topic=quotes
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Cheers,
LH[/b]
The passage given shows that both you and RBHILL are giving a distorted and simplistic meaning when you say that Mormons believe they will become "Gods". I find it incredibly odd that the idea that God once walked as a man is sooooooooooo strange to a Trinitarian. The context they describe men as "learning how to be Gods themselves -- TO BE KINGS AND PRIESTS TO GOD" is pretty clear. Even a sophist like yourself cannot stretch it to mean what RBHILL is saying. To pretend that "RBHILL is right" on this point is BS.
I find it laughable and amazing that you are agreeing with RBHILL that the beliefs of a Christian denomination aren't Christian enough to be considered "not less Christian". Given his statements concerning your Church, not even one of them Mormon "Gods" could create any greater irony.
12 Sep 05
Originally posted by no1marauderIs there any significant difference from saying In that sense, "they're probably even less Christian than the Jehovah's Witnesses" and saying they are non-Christian?
Is there any significant difference from saying In that sense, "they're probably even less Christian than the Jehovah's Witnesses" and saying they are non-Christian?
The passage given shows that both you and RBHILL are giving a distorted and simplistic meaning when you say that Mormons believe they will become "Gods". I find it incredibly ...[text shortened]... nts concerning your Church, not even one of them Mormon "Gods" could create any greater irony.
Read the edited statement above.
The passage given shows that both you and RBHILL are giving a distorted and simplistic meaning when you say that Mormons believe they will become "Gods".
Far from it. You're simply holding on to your position because that is what you started with and to go back now would mean a loss of face. It is quite clear from the quotes that they hold God and men to be of the same species.
I find it incredibly odd that the idea that God once walked as a man is sooooooooooo strange to a Trinitarian.
Remember, he is talking about God/Elohim here and not Jesus/Jehovah (yes, they are two different Gods in Mormon doctrine).
The context they describe men as "learning how to be Gods themselves -- TO BE KINGS AND PRIESTS TO GOD" is pretty clear.
As I said in my post, that doesn't mean they don't teach that men will be the same kind of being as God. Just that God/Elohim will remain numero uno by virtue of his being the Father. Primus inter pares - first among equals - if you will.
“As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be,” is also pretty clear.
12 Sep 05
3 edits
"they're probably even less Christian than the Jehovah's Witnesses"
Where do Lutherans lie on the spectrum of Christianity? Are they more or less Christian than Catholics? How about other Protestant denominations?
Could you sketch out a to-scale spectrum, like this, but more complete:
NOT SO CHRISTIAN :::::A---------------B----C------D--------------------------------E:::::VERY CHRISTIAN
A: Jews
B: Mormans
C: Jehovah's Witnesses
D: Lutherans
E: Catholics
12 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by lucifershammerI would say that you are continuing to hold on to an absurd position based on your ignorance of the beliefs of Mormons. The irony remains intact.
[b/]Is there any significant difference from saying In that sense, "they're probably even less Christian than the Jehovah's Witnesses" and saying they are non-Christian?
Read the edited statement above.
The passage given shows that both you and RBHILL are giving a distorted and simplistic meaning when you say that Mormons believe they ...[text shortened]... - if you will.
“As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be,” is also pretty clear.
Sorry, I don't find "the first among equals" language in any Mormon website. The phrase you cite in far from clear as God as many attributes and Christians believe that those who are saved will share some of these (like eternal life and absence of sin, for example). A fuller quote would be necessary to show what the speaker meant exactly, not a mere snippet probably out of context. I notice the other quotes were far more detailed.
12 Sep 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesInstead of a simple ordinal ranking, perhaps LH could give each of these denominations a score with the Roman Catholic Church receiving a 100% Christian and Rwingett getting a 0% rating with the other groups being rated somewhere in-between.
[b]"they're probably even less Christian than the Jehovah's Witnesses"
Where do Lutherans lie on the spectrum of Christianity? Are they more or less Christian than Catholics? How about other Protestant denominations?
Could you sketch out a to-scale spectrum, like this, but more complete:
A---------------B----C------D------------- ...[text shortened]... --------------E
A: Jews
B: Mormans
C: Jehovah's Witnesses
D: Lutherans
E: Catholics[/b]
12 Sep 05
Originally posted by no1marauderActually, it might be possible to give such a score (out of 12) using the Apostles Creed (see the "Who is a Christian" thread).
Instead of a simple ordinal ranking, perhaps LH could give each of these denominations a score with the Roman Catholic Church receiving a 100% Christian and Rwingett getting a 0% rating with the other groups being rated somewhere in-between.
😀
LH
12 Sep 05
Originally posted by no1marauderI would say that you are continuing to hold on to an absurd position based on your ignorance of the beliefs of Mormons. The irony remains intact.
I would say that you are continuing to hold on to an absurd position based on your ignorance of the beliefs of Mormons. The irony remains intact.
Sorry, I don't find "the first among equals" language in any Mormon website. The phrase you cite in far from clear as God as many attributes and Christians believe that those who are saved will sha ...[text shortened]... y, not a mere snippet probably out of context. I notice the other quotes were far more detailed.
The irony is that you continue to throw out nothing but snide remarks. Please do some research and provide evidence that RBHill and I have interpreted the Mormon doctrine of deification wrongly if you want to engage in serious debate.
Sorry, I don't find "the first among equals" language in any Mormon website.
No you won't. That is my conclusion based on Mormon anthropology and theology.
The phrase you cite in far from clear as God as many attributes and Christians believe that those who are saved will share some of these (like eternal life and absence of sin, for example). A fuller quote would be necessary to show what the speaker meant exactly, not a mere snippet probably out of context. I notice the other quotes were far more detailed.
The Joseph Smith extract is clear enough - I've provided the link to the entire text if you want to read it. If I'd wanted to distort Mormon doctrine in any way, I could've chosen to omit the "kings and priests" bit. But the key point remains - read in context, "kings and priests" do not refute the doctrine of deification - only that God will continue to remain supreme in the eternal life.
I can't find an online version of 'The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow' to provide the context around the quote (and, in my defence, the LDS website does quote it in isolation) - but if you find it online, that would be a great help.
Cheers,
LH
12 Sep 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerI presented a link to a Mormon website giving the details of their belief system; I would imagine that anyone who isn't being completely intellectually dishonest would regard that as sufficient "research". Go read it yourself.
[b]I would say that you are continuing to hold on to an absurd position based on your ignorance of the beliefs of Mormons. The irony remains intact.
The irony is that you continue to throw out nothing but snide remarks. Please do some research and provide evidence that RBHill and I have interpreted the Mormon doctrine of deification wrongly if ...[text shortened]... quote it in isolation) - but if you find it online, that would be a great help.
Cheers,
LH[/b]
BTW, the Mormons score 11/12 or 92% on your Apostles Creed test (miss the one Church bit). Is that high enough to be considered Christian??
12 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderI presented a link to a Mormon website giving the details of their belief system; I would imagine that anyone who isn't being completely intellectually dishonest would regard that as sufficient "research". Go read it yourself.
I presented a link to a Mormon website giving the details of their belief system; I would imagine that anyone who isn't being completely intellectually dishonest would regard that as sufficient "research". Go read it yourself.
BTW, the Mormons score 11/12 or 92% on your Apostles Creed test (miss the one Church bit). Is that high enough to be considered Christian??
I have. And nothing on the site provided contradicts what I and RBHill have written about the Mormon doctrine of deification. In fact, the author of the website you provided affirms that doctrine and holds it to be Biblical:
"Even though we believe in the ultimate deification of man, I am unaware of any authoritative statement in LDS literature that suggests that we will ever worship any being other than the ones within the Godhead."†
Still contend that RBHill and I are misrepresenting Mormon doctrine?
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† http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/godhood.htm
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Cheers,
LH