Refuting Rajk999ism

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I think RakK has a scriptural basis for his assertion, its quite clear that there are persons who were Christians who are not redeemable, he posted a scriptural reference to back up his claim.

In addition there are several passages of that nature. Even in the passage which Jaywill/sonship keeps quoting about a mans work going through fire, he is [wilfully in my opinion] leaving out the rest of the statement becasue the last part supports what I keep saying .. ie that there are some Christians who will lose their eternal life and be destroyed.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Corinthians 3:14-17 KJV)

Read it carefully Jaywill. Paul said that there are 3 classes of people here, and not 2 like you constantly state:
1. The ones who get a reward
2. Ones who get no reward but will still be saved
3. Ones who GOD SHALL DESTROY.

Bear in mind Jaywill, that the more you need to explain and elaborate that more likely it is that you are very wrong and have gone astray. Notice I did not explain anything. The Bible explains itself. Just read the Bible as it is written and do not omit anything as you clearly are deliberately doing here. Shame on you.

[quote] what is a worker of lawlessness jaywill, in your opinion? Is it referring to believers or unbelievers?

In that passage, Matthew 7:21, it must be a believer.

That is a believer whose has not lived within the parameters of the Father's will. He has worked for Christ but according to his own way.

He casted out demons in the name of Jesus.
He did mighty works in the name of Jesus.
But he did not the Father's will in the Father's way.

This has to be a warning to Christian workers in the way they labor in their Christian service. It is a warning to me.

God may honor the faith of someone and allow you to cast out a demon. In that case maybe God is honoring that other person's faith.

But if you desire to sell miracle handkerchiefs and are exploiting a miracle ministry. MAYBE one day the Lord will say "Depart from Me. I enlighened your conscience about your methods but you did not come under My Lordship. You will not be rewarded. You will suffer loss."

It is sobering. And it is not written for the other guy. It is written for me. It is written for the Christian.

In spite of this discipline - everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

Matthew 7:21 does not make Romans 10:9 not true.

Rajk999 and Jehovah Witness Robbie want to use Matthew 7:21 to prove that Romans 10:9 is not true. Shame on them.

Rajk999 continues:

In addition there are several passages of that nature. Even in the passage which Jaywill/sonship keeps quoting about a mans work going through fire, he is [wilfully in my opinion] leaving out the rest of the statement becasue the last part supports what I keep saying .. ie that there are some Christians who will lose their eternal life and be destroyed.

You are assuming that to be destroyed in First Corinthians 3:17 is to be eternally lost. Your assumption is wrong.

The CONTEXT proves that to be destroyed there is the same as to lose the reward. But to lose the reward is the suffering of one who is saved.

Do not think that First Corinthians 3 is the only place we can go to prove your teaching is in error. It is a good place to go.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Corinthians 3:14-17 KJV)

Exactly. The warning about being destroyed is definitely corresponding to suffering loss and being saved yet so as through fire.

Read it carefully Jaywill. Paul said that there are 3 classes of people here, and not 2 like you constantly state:
1. The ones who get a reward
2. Ones who get no reward but will still be saved
3. Ones who GOD SHALL DESTROY.

I don't know how you can twist it this way.

If he is destroyed forever that it would not say "but he himself will be SAVED."

In that case it would read - "and he himself will be DAMNED forever".

Do you think God has absolutely NO other way to discipline His children but to damn them ? If you think that God has absolutely NO OTHER method to discipline his sons except eternal damnation then you are certainly myopic, short sighted, and on a one note ideology.

You never graduated from the MILK of the word of God. You may have powdered milk. You may make chocolate milk. You may have low fat milk or some other kind of milk. But you cannot move beyond the milk of the word.

If you want to make disciples who are solid you FIRST should teach them the assurance of eternal salvation. Then you go on to teach them about the REWARD of the millennial kingdom.

This is what the Apostle Paul did.

Bear in mind Jaywill, that the more you need to explain and elaborate that more likely it is that you are very wrong and have gone astray. Notice I did not explain anything. The Bible explains itself. Just read the Bible as it is written and do not omit anything as you clearly are deliberately doing here. Shame on you.

You are attempting to put forth you carelessness and laziness as some kind of proof that you must be right.

The New Testament is 27 books. We do not say "Why ALL THIS WRITING ?? All we need is a chapter or two. These extra words and extra books and letters prove that the apostles had to write a lot of unnecessary words."


Save it. Your excuse of lazy and careless lack to detail doesn't impress me. Milk is all you know. Revocation of eternal salvation is the only thing you apparently were ever taught.

Originally posted by sonship
Rajk999 continues:

[quote] In addition there are several passages of that nature. Even in the passage which Jaywill/sonship keeps quoting about a mans work going through fire, he is [wilfully in my opinion] leaving out the rest of the statement becasue the last part supports what I keep saying .. ie that there are some Christians who will lose their eter ...[text shortened]... all you know. Revocation of eternal salvation is the only thing you apparently were ever taught.

The sad thing is that there are fools out there who rather believe what you say than believe the Bible.

The Bible says - GOD WILL DESTROY. You say not true.
The Bible says - IMPOSSIBLE TO GET FORGIVENESS - You say not true
The Bible says - SOME ARE CURSED AND WILL BE BURNED - You say it means something else
The Bible says the WICKED WILL BE CUT OFF - You say no.

There are many fools out there.

Originally posted by sonship

[quote] what is a worker of lawlessness jaywill, in your opinion? Is it referring to believers or unbelievers?

In that passage, Matthew 7:21, it must be a believer.

That is a believer whose has not lived within the parameters of the Father's will. He has worked for Christ but according to his own way.

He casted out demons in the ...[text shortened]... ah Witness Robbie want to use Matthew 7:21 to prove that Romans 10:9 is not true. Shame on them.

Robbie want to use Matthew 7:21 to prove that Romans 10:9 is not true. Shame on them.

ummm i dont have a problem with Romans 10:9

More Rajk999ism to refute:

The Bible says - GOD WILL DESTROY. You say not true.

Anyone who does not take the time to carefully read the third chapter of First Corinthians will find it difficult to follow what I am about to write here.

The soul that suffers loss is the soul not transformed in the church age. [EDITED] Since Jesus said that if we wish to follow Him we have to lose our soul life to save it latter, the converse is true. If we save our own soul life during the church age we will lose our soul life when He comes to reward His followers.

To lose the soul life is to lose the enjoyment of the soul. This suffering of loss is called being destroyed in First Corinthians 3:17.

"If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy; and such are you."

The "building" in this chapter has to do with building the living church of God which is the temple of God. The build with precious materials like gold, silver, and precious stones is to build with the Triune God. The gold represents the divine nature of the Father. The silver represents the redemptive work of Christ. And the precious stones represents the transformation work of the Holy Spirit.

Paul is saying that the church of God can only be built with the Triune God lived out in man as the works of gold, silver and precious stones.

To destroy the temple of God is for the Christian to build with inferior quality materials which stem from the untransformed natural man - ie. from the fallen Adamic nature. Albiet it may be religious activity. But it is the represented by the wood, grass and stubble. These things are found in great abundance but came not of the salvation of the Triune God and are therefore inferior. [EDITED]

To build with wood, grass, or stubble is to destroy the church of God by attempting to build it up with the old man. To attempt to build the Christian church with the inferior materials of the fallen nature is to mar the temple. It is to defile the temple. It is to corrupt the temple and ruin the church. Therefore it is to destroy the church.

When the Lord Jesus returns all Christians will appear before His judgment seat. Some will receive a reward for the way they builded the church. And some will suffer the loss of reward for how they destroyed the church by living in the church with the untransformed life too much.

They will be saved. They will be saved eternally yet so as through fire. And they will lose the enjoyment of their soul instead of have an enjoyment of their soul. This being dealt with by losing the enjoyment of their soul is what Paul says is being destroyed. It is not eternal perdition.

If destroy means eternal damnation then Paul would not write concerning this one that - " BUT ... he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."(v.15).

Another fallacy of Rajk999ism -

The Bible says - IMPOSSIBLE TO GET FORGIVENESS - You say not true

The passage referenced here is Hebrew 6:4-7 which I already dealt with.

"For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

And yet have fallen away, to renew themselves again untp repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God and putting Him to open shame. " (vs.4-6)

First of all let me say that I believe that the writer is not talking about false Christians. I believe he is talking about those who were redeemed and born again - genuine saved followers of Christ.

To some this means they lose their eternal salvation. Believe that if you wish. But the far more logical interpretation is that their works are burned up and they lose their reward in the "age to come".

The immediately following verse 7 is the key to understanding this -

"For the earth, which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegetation suitable to those for whose sake also it is cultivated, partakes of blessing from God. But if it brings forth thorns and thisstles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned." (vs.7,8)

The thorns and thistles are what is burned. That is the works produced from the soil which should have produced suitable vegetation. The works "thorns and thistes" burned up. The believer is not cursed. But he is "near a curse" for he is being punished. He is being disciplined by the loss of the reward of "the age to come".

And I proved that "the age to come" is the one thousand year millennial kingdom which preceeds the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth.

Rajk999's misunderstanding - The believer is cursed. The believer losses eternal redemption in the eternal age. He is burned forever.

The truth - The believer is punished. But his WORKS are what are disapproved and burned at the fiery examination of Christ towards His followers. This examination is after His second coming and BEFORE the millennial kingdom. And it pertains TO the millennial kingdom and NOT to the eternal age following the millennial kingdom.

Rajk9999 seems to take some pride in being simple. However he is not simple when it comes to a passage like this -

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Not of works that no one should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9)

When it is time to read this simply he is somehow not simple.
But when he reads what he regards as eternal salvation through man's good works, then he boasts of being simple.

More on Hebrews 6:4-8

The Bible says - SOME ARE CURSED AND WILL BE BURNED - You say it means something else

Here the issue is what is burned the ground or the thorns and thistles.

"For the earth, which drinks the rain whch often comes upon it and produces vegetation suitable ... partakes of blessing from God. But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and mear a curse, whose end is to be burned."

I submit that the farmer who cultivates the farm land looks for the suitable vegetation to come forth as the result of his cultivation. If the ground brings forth something ELSE that he doesn't want, what does he usually do?

Does he seek to destroy the ground by burning up the ground ?
Or does he collect the thorns and thistles and burn them up ?


I submit that the farmer analogy is more logical that the unwanted produce of the cultivated soil is burned up. The ground is still good for growing something latter, perhaps under different cultivation methods.

Rajk999 teaches that what is burned is the believer. I say if that is so it cannot be forever. And I do not believe that the believer is meant as being burned but the junky works produced are burned.

During the millennial "age to come" he suffers loss, even being "near a curse". He is not cursed. Those who go into the eternal fire are said to be the cursed (Matthew 25:41 -)

"Go away from Me you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Rajk999ism seems to hold that nothing unpleasant can await a Christian after the second coming of Christ EXCEPT to lose eternal salvation.

I hope to prove from many places that that eternal salvation is a GIFT and cannot be lost. It is not " the [LOAN] of God is eternal life." It is that " the GIFT of God is eternal life." (Romans 6:23)

Then Rajk999 concludes with this summary:

The Bible says the WICKED WILL BE CUT OFF - You say no.

I never said that the wicked will not be cut off. This is false accusation.

Rajk999 boasts of being simple and just taking the simple words. Funny thing is that he is unable to take simply certain passages that go against his belief that salvation is of works.

When it is time for him to be simple about this he seems unable to apply simplicity -

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works that no one should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9)

Rajk999's simplicity goes out the window and we get this kind of interpretation (in essence) -

" By WORKS you have been saved and it IS of yourselves. It is a LOAN of God. Be careful God may take back His LOAN. And if you have good works you CAN BOAST. Why? Well, because by your own good works you got saved of course. "

ummm i dont have a problem with Romans 10:9

Will you be saved ?

Yes or no ?

Originally posted by sonship

ummm i dont have a problem with Romans 10:9

Will you be saved ?

Yes or no ?

ummmm, ummmm, ummmm, ummm, ummmm ....

Originally posted by sonship

ummm i dont have a problem with Romans 10:9

Will you be saved ?

Yes or no ?

Will i be saved, will that depends upon whether or not i endure until the end doesn't it. Its ludicrous and anti scriptural to state that you are in a saved state already. He who is standing beware that he does not fall.

Originally posted by sonship
ummmm, ummmm, ummmm, ummm, ummmm ....

an excellent song!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Will i be saved, will that depends upon whether or not i endure until the end doesn't it. Its ludicrous and anti scriptural to state that you are in a saved state already. He who is standing beware that he does not fall.

I know that you know the letter of the Bible well enough to think of some verse to excuse your lack of assurance.

But you see the term "SAVED" occurs in the PAST TENSE to those of us who have received Christ -

"For by grace you have been SAVED ..." (Ephesians 2:8 )

So the SAVED sinner does not have to hem and haw and be evasive and gird on humility. You can say "I KNOW the I have been saved. Praise the Lord!

Now this is not pride. This is not arrogance. It is usually the inner assurance of the "seal " and the "pledge" of the Holy Spirit.

"In whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, in Him also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory." (Eph. 1:13,14)

So it is not humility to be unsure that you are [past tense] "saved".
It may be humility to say that you do not know if you will be rewarded.
That may be your being humble.

But to hesitate to boldly affirm that you are saved may mean that you have NEVER received the Holy Spirit of the promise as a down payment, as a inward living "seal". You need to be saved. And you need the pledge of the Holy Spirit that comes with believing into Christ.

But if some teachers taught you "Oh, the Holy Spirit ? Well, that's just some kind of force or something. Don't be too concerned about that" then you are getting cheated.

When they are lost to perdition, you will be lost with them. You will only be able to sadly say "But, but, I thought the Holy Spirit was just some force or something that trinitarians superstitiously made into a Ghost."

You do not have the assurance to say you are SAVED (Ephesians 2:8) - "For by grace you have been SAVED through faith, and this not of yourselves it is the gift of God."

You do not have the assurance because you are depending upon YOUR good works to BE SAVED. You should throw yourself in trust to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and confess Him as your only Savior. If Jesus doesn't save you you will never be saved.

When you receive the living and available Lord Jesus into your heart then the Holy Spirit will act as a undeniable "pledge" that you have known something with more assurance than you have ever known ANYTHING.

You will receive something that neither the world or religion can give you. And the world or religion cannot take it away.

You will be "firmly attached" with the Anointed One - the Christ. And you will know that you know that you know because of the pledge of the Spirit.


"But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God. He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (2 Cor. 1:21,22)

Originally posted by sonship
I know that you know the letter of the Bible well enough to think of some verse to excuse your lack of assurance.

But you see the term [b]"SAVED" occurs in the PAST TENSE to those of us who have received Christ -

"For by grace you have been SAVED ..." (Ephesians 2:8 )

So the SAVED sinner does not have to hem and haw and ...[text shortened]... He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (2 Cor. 1:21,22) [/b][/b]

I have received (past tense) a hair cut, it does not mean that my hair will not grow again and i will need another, a nonsensical semantic argument, you are not once saved for all time, its a non Biblical teaching as Rajk admirably points out. Christians lost their faith and did not attain again to repentance as he also points out. There is no sacrifice left for the wilful unrepentant sinner, none! absolutely none!