Refuting Rajk999ism

Originally posted by sonship
Is anyone going to object on the grounds of [b]Matthew 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens ..." ?

That's the standard objection by Arminians to Romans 10:9.

I am ready to discuss that too.[/b]

Arminian's? Why don't you discuss the text (with brevity) on its own merits, its clear that there are those who say they profess Christ and those who are actually DOING the will of the father. What is there to discuss, the text is rather explicit and clear. No one is objecting to Romans 10:9, what they find objectionable, is your insistence that its all that is necessary, a nonsense as Matthew 7:21 clearly demonstrates.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I was talking of mixing carrot juice and radish juice, it had a debilitating effect on Buggs bunny, i wondered if perhaps you also had made this mistake! 😵

Can you address the point that I made, that being, that Christ distinguishes between lip service and those doling the will of God, does he not?

Absolutely, but it has nothing to do with losing ones salvation...

Originally posted by sonship

It says "you will be saved" and not "you have been saved."

That is right.

Is your point that the Christian today who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus has no right to be assured that he IS saved right now ? Well, this is nor true on all levels.

The human being is tripartite - spirit and soul and body.
As to his spirit he i ...[text shortened]... ly for me being SAVED from my fallen sinful nature today.

http://www.callingonthelord.org/

I stopped when you said the the human being is spirit and soul and body.

I know enough about the bible to know that it explicitly says that we come from dust and shall return to dust.

Isn't part of Jesus' ressurection to show that when you die you will also be ressurected?

Originally posted by MISTER CHESS
I stopped when you said the the human being is spirit and soul and body.

I know enough about the bible to know that it explicitly says that we come from dust and shall return to dust.

Isn't part of Jesus' ressurection to show that when you die you will also be ressurected?

You stopped reading too soon. To be "preserved complete" and "wholly" all three of man's parts must be addressed -

"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)

We have three parts "spirit and soul and body" .

I know enough about the bible to know that it explicitly says that we come from dust and shall return to dust.

The body turns again into dust. The spirit and the soul of man are not from the material earth so they do not return to dust.

Isn't part of Jesus' ressurection to show that when you die you will also be ressurected?

Yes. Both believers and unbelievers will be resurrected.

Now that you know that we are of three parts - "spirit and soul and body" why don't you go back and finish reading my post from where you stopped. Then we can continue discussing what is in the Scripture.

Or for further reading about our THREE parts go here:

http://www.tripartiteman.org/

Originally posted by sonship
You stopped reading too soon. To be [b]"preserved complete" and "wholly" all three of man's parts must be addressed -

"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)

We have three parts "spirit ...[text shortened]... .

Or for further reading about our THREE parts go here:

http://www.tripartiteman.org/

No, it explicitly says that WE came from dust and WE shall return to dust. Are you stating that we are only our flesh?

If WE are simply our body and a spirit leaves our body then that spirit is not our spirit any longer if it ever was. Therefore, spirit and body (mind and body) are inseperable, when our body dies so does our spirit(mind).

"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)

This seems to implicate that we will be ressurected when Christ returns and is probably the reason to prefer a burial over a cremation. This in no way states that either the spirit, soul or body are seperate things.

Yes. Both believers and unbelievers will be resurrected.

What is the point of being ressurected if you have some spirit that lives forever after your body dies?

Originally posted by MISTER CHESS
No, it explicitly says that WE came from dust and WE shall return to dust. Are you stating that we are only our flesh?

If WE are simply our body and a spirit leaves our body then that spirit is not our spirit any longer if it ever was. Therefore, spirit and body (mind and body) are inseperable, when our body dies so does our spirit(mind).

[quote] ...[text shortened]... the point of being ressurected if you have some spirit that lives forever after your body dies?

What is the point of being resurrected if you have some spirit that lives forever after your body dies

a brilliant and rather telling question!

No, it explicitly says that WE came from dust and WE shall return to dust. Are you stating that we are only our flesh?

You are reading only what you want to see. It is not that I am teaching something extra. It is that you are not believing enough.

Zechariah 12:1 - "The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him."

Did you see that? God who created the heavens and the earth "forms the spirit of man within him."

There is a spirit in man. Within the man made from the dust there is a human spirit.

The spirit of man is called also the lamp of Jehovah searching all the inward parts of man's inner being. That must mean that the human spirit illuminates to God and man the inward psychological parts of his soul -

Proverbs 20:27 - " The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the innermost parts of the inner being."

Your human conscience is in your spirit.
Your human conscience is not material and will not return to dust.
The human spirit with the conscience is a part of the WE you say must return to dust.

The human spirit is also called the breath of the Almighty in man giving man a very inward and subjective understanding -

Job 32:8 - "But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding."

This spirit in man does not return to dust. But this spirit in man is part of the WE that you say returns to dust.

And the New Testament clearly told you that you and me are "spirit and soul and body." So why are you trying to change that to mean that WE are ONLY a physical body ?

If WE are simply our body and a spirit leaves our body then that spirit is not our spirit any longer if it ever was.

I call this grasping at cynical straws.

We are a material part - body.
And we are an immaterial part - soul and spirit.

The body can melt into dust at death.
The spirit and soul as the immaterial part are then separated from the body. They are not non-existent. But they are in an abnormal condition.

Besides, you should look carefully at Genesis 2:7 -

"Jehovah God formed man with the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." (Gen. 2:7)

It didn't stop merely at "God formed man with the dust of the ground". That was not the end of the process. You want to believe that the man formed from the dust of the ground is the complete end to the creation of man.

Clearly after man was formed from the dust of the ground God breathed into him the spirit of life. The joining of the spirit or the breath of God to the body caused man to become a living soul.

Just forming the frame of the body from dust did not make man a living soul. It was the spirit from God the body from the dust joining together which resulted in man becoming a living soul.

The word construction of First Thessalonians 5:23 is very similar as that of

Matthew 28:20- "name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

First Thessalonians 5:23 - "your spirit and soul and body ..."

Three __________s of the Triune God.
(I borrow the word Persons cautiously)
And three parts of the created man.

Therefore, spirit and body (mind and body) are inseperable, when our body dies so does our spirit(mind).

The human spirit does not contain the mind.
The regenerated man must set his mind ON the human spirit -

"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Romans 8:6)

The man who is born again must learn to set his mind ON the new regenerated human spirit.

You may say that the soul and spirit dies when the body dies.
But the death of the soul is not the non-existence of the soul and spirit.

The death of man is the separation of the immaterial part from his material part. The death of a man is not the non-existence of his soul and spirit.

If you are expecting to pass into non-existence when your heart stops beating you are going to be sorely disapointed. For you will find upon dying that YOU do not cease to exist. And YOU will await the resurrection of the body. And that with expectation or with dread probably.

"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)

That is the word of God.
The salvation of the spirit is called regeneration.
The salvation of the soul is under the meaning of "transformation".
And the salvation of the physical body is called "transfiguration"..

So to be sanctified WHOLLY and COMPLETELY is to undergo regeneration of the comatose spirit in the new birth, plus transformation of the damaged fallen soul into the image of Christ and to experience the glorification of transfiguration of the body at resurrection or rapture.

This seems to implicate that we will be resurrected when Christ returns and is probably the reason to prefer a burial over a cremation. This in no way states that either the spirit, soul or body are separate things.

It is your personal choice how you would like those remaining alive to deal with your dead body.

We are spirit and soul and body. And the death of your body is you dying. However it is not you being non-existent.

What is the point of being ressurected if you have some spirit that lives forever after your body dies?

To be without the body is discribed as not normal. Paul said it is a state of being found naked. It is to be unclothed.

What is normal is that the man would be sanctified WHOLLY and COMPLETELY - spirit and soul and body. God's salvation is exceedingly practical. It includes the physical body the immaterial soul and spirit and even the outward environment wherein human beings live.

God's full salvation is exceedingly practical. We should not consider that we are saved to be phantoms floating around or just detached souls. We should believe that word that His intention is to sanctify us WHOLLY - spirit and soul and body.

The Tripartite man -
http://www.tripartiteman.org/

Originally posted by sonship

No, it explicitly says that WE came from dust and WE shall return to dust. Are you stating that we are only our flesh?

You are reading only what you want to see. It is not that I am teaching something [b]extra. It is that you are not believing enough.

Zechariah 12:1 - "The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Isr ...[text shortened]... spirit and soul and body.

The Tripartite man -
[b] http://www.tripartiteman.org/ [/b]

Zechariah 12:1 - "The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him."

What do you call this if you say I am merely grasping at straws? The core is within the apple but if you remove it that doesn't make the core the apple.

I can say someone has beauty within them but that doesn't mean when they die it will be beautiful or some essence of beauty will fly up out of them.

If I asked if you had courage within you would you cut yourself open to try and find out?

"Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him."

I would think this implies that Jehovah will put us through our personal trials and tribulations to form our character/spirit.

"The mind set on the spirit is peace"

Yes, introspection and meditation is peaceful, the mind is part of the spirit, it is a part of us which can't be physically observed (spirit).


Edit: Simply quoting massive amounts of scripture doesn't do anybody any good when they grasp for meanings that aren't there.

People will believe anything if they fear it might be true or they wish it were and those are they main reasons people believe in God.

What do you call this if you say I am merely grasping at straws? The core is within the apple but if you remove it that doesn't make the core the apple.

I am not sure I get your analogy. The human spirit is not the entire man. Neither is the core the entire apple.

God forms the spirit of man within him. Within man there is the spirit of man. I don't get your problem.

Now you mistakenly equated the spirit with the mind. Could you tell me then when Paul draws a distinction that he can worship with his mind or with his spirit ?

"What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind." (First Corinthians 14:15)

See ? with the spirit and with the mind. There is a distinction.

The human spirit is not the same as the human mind.
The previous verses speaks of distinction as well -

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind in unfruitful." (v.14)

He prays with his regenerated spirit in tongues but his mind is unfruitful. So you should understand a distinction of the human spirit and the human mind.

I will stop here.

I would think this implies that Jehovah will put us through our personal trials and tribulations to form our character/spirit.

God does see His believers through many trials. And He does so to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ.

If you read that from Zechariah 12:1 that is great. This doesn't mean that Scripture teaches that the spirit and the mind are the same though.

Seeing something very positive about comfort in tribulations is good.
But there is a spirit within man. So you have a man. And within the man you have the man's spirit.

"The mind set on the spirit is peace"

Yes, introspection and meditation is peaceful, the mind is part of the spirit, it is a part of us which can't be physically observed (spirit).

There are forms of meditation that do not involve the human spirit. You do not have to be born again to meditate. And such meditation may yield some introspection and some peace.

It would be a mistake to think Romans 8 is only speaking of meditation that anyone can undergo.

I practiced Zen meditation before I began to know my regenerated human spirit. And I practiced introspection before I enlightened by the Holy Spirit to confess my sins.

Edit: Simply quoting massive amounts of scripture doesn't do anybody any good when they grasp for meanings that aren't there.

It is profitable to receive the testimony of Scripture on a subject. Sometimes that can be many verses, sometimes less. It is profitable to the man of God.

All scripture is God breathed and profitable says Paul to Timothy and the rest of us lovers of the Scripture. We look always to enlarge our capacity.
It is helpful to enlarge our capacity.

People will believe anything if they fear it might be true or they wish it were and those are they main reasons people believe in God.

You're in jump around & complain mode. Don't think I'll play whack-a-mole with every dime a dozen complaint you now put up.

The main thing here has been demonstrated - human beings are tripartite - "spirit and soul and body".

Originally posted by sonship

What do you call this if you say I am merely grasping at straws? The core is within the apple but if you remove it that doesn't make the core the apple.

I am not sure I get your analogy. The human spirit is not the entire man. Neither is the core the entire apple.

God forms the spirit of man within him. Within man there is the spirit ...[text shortened]... ou should understand a distinction of the human spirit and the human mind.

I will stop here.

This equates the spirit with the mind, the spirit is that part of us which can't be observed physically, our disposition, our character and our mind.

You didn't quote any of the other anologies because you are grasping at straws. The analogy means that you can't take the core out of the apple and it still be the apple, you can't take the spirit out of a man and have it still be the man. Simple.

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind in unfruitful."

The mind is a part of our spirit and it would be an essential part if only our spirit lives eternally seperate from our body. All these quotes you are throwing at me are only proving my point. Did you go over logical reasoning in math class? Not trying to say you are dumb but you seem to have trouble equating hypotheses and conclusions.

This equates the spirit with the mind, the spirit is that part of us which can't be observed physically, our disposition, our character and our mind.

The distinction between SOUL and SPIRIT in the Bible is rather a progressive one. A number of things in the Bible grow more clear as the nature of salvation is progressively revealed.

By the time we get to the New Testament, the distinction between the SOUL and the SPIRIT of man is clear. It is clear enough that Hebrews 4:12 says that the word of God can pierce to the dividing asunder of the two -

"For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two edged sword and piercing to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

Now some may dismiss this passage as just too much scripture "that doesn't help anybody." And some may think that the verses is just general and should not be taken seriously.

And I am of neither of those attitudes. The DIVIDING ASUNDER of soul and spirit proves that thought both are parts of man they are not the same thing.

Now terms like mind, soul, spirit, heart may seem somewhat general and vague. But some of us use the terms very particularly to mean very particular things according to HOW they are used in the whole Bible.

In short some of us are not simply throwing around vague phrases. When I mean to say HEART I know just what I mean according to the Bible. When I say "my spirit" or "your spirit" that is not vague to me. I know exactly what I mean.

Soul has a particular significance to me.
Heart has a particular significance.
Human spirit has a specific biblical significance.
Spirit of God or Holy Spirit has a particular biblical significance.

I have not gone into the specifics too much. I linked you to a helpful site on the tripartite man. Apparently you must have brushed it off. I think the loss is yours.

I am not splitting hairs on words just for the sake of splitting hairs. When you get interested enough to know about the biblical usage of words like heart, soul, spirit, mind, inward parts, conscience, will, emotion, then we may be able to get down to more serious reviewing what the Bible means by these words.

You didn't quote any of the other anologies because you are grasping at straws. The analogy means that you can't take the core out of the apple and it still be the apple, you can't take the spirit out of a man and have it still be the man. Simple.

Who the "you" is there I am not sure. However, the Bible shows that the immaterial part of man can be separated from the body. Death is not the non-existence of your immaterial part.

In terms of this world you die and are no more. But in terms of realms under the control of God you are not non-existent. You are unclothed and need to be clothed upon again.

And the proof of this is in a number of places. One of which is the fifth chapter of Second Corinthians.

You may not like it but it is there. Sorry. Sorry you don't like it. But it is really not that bad. Maybe you should go to God in prayer to discover why you don't like this.

But for the record in Second Corinthians chapter five Paul says that to depart the body is to be unclothed and naked. Something within has lost its covering. And that something which is naked is YOU, is YOU, is YOU.

It is not ALL of you. But it is YOU.

If you think you will be non-existent on the day your heart stops beating, you will be disappointed.

The mind is a part of our spirit and it would be an essential part if only our spirit lives eternally seperate from our body. All these quotes you are throwing at me are only proving my point. Did you go over logical reasoning in math class? Not trying to say you are dumb but you seem to have trouble equating hypotheses and conclusions.

In the poetry and prose of the world you may get the synonymous usage of MIND and SPIRIT.

But the careful learner from the revelation of the Bible can see that to the word of God they are not synonymous.

You decide where you want to put YOUR trust.
I like the generalities of the worldly prose and art and poetry where mind and spirit can be used interchangeably.

With the real important decisions of life I trust in the word of God.
And there we see that the human spirit is in distinction from the human mind.

I showed you where. You want to ignore that and run with the prose of the secular world. Go ahead. You trust in that.

Me - I take the Bible as God's speaking to us. And there the mind is part of the soul and the word of God pierces even to the division of soul and spirit (Hebrews 4:12)

That is not just my theology. That is my personal experience.

Originally posted by sonship

The mind is a part of our spirit and it would be an essential part if only our spirit lives eternally seperate from our body. All these quotes you are throwing at me are only proving my point. Did you go over logical reasoning in math class? Not trying to say you are dumb but you seem to have trouble equating hypotheses and conclusions.

...[text shortened]... spirit [b](Hebrews 4:12)

That is not just my theology. That is my personal experience.[/b]

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind in unfruitful."

This quote if taken in context means that it is unfruitful to your spirit to pray in tongues, it doesn't gain any fruits.

So logically we can say if I pray in a tongue my spirit is unfruitful. Therefore, mind in this quote is interchangeable with spirit and does not prove your point.

This has nothing to do with worldy prose, this has to do with natural law which, if you are christian, God must have created. So, once again, logically we can assume he meant us to use it to understand words.

The Bible is written in words so we can logically assume that he intended us to be logical when we try to understand the words written in the bible.

I'm not the least bit "religious" but isn't anything written in any of the "Holy Books" open to interpretation? Sure you'll get some people who say, "Ya that's what that means. " and they may be Catholics or they may be Anglicans or they may be Suni Muslims or Orthodox Jews or whatever. No matter which "Holy Book" you read/believe in there will be different interpretations and the problem is "yours" (Holy Book and interpretation) is the right one. So rather than try to foist yours on others just agree to disagree, head to the local pub and have a beer.