21 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by vishvahetuThe Vedic has no model in history.
Hold on to Christ as you will, but why hold on to error....what is the problem in giving up the error.
Just give up the error and keep on your spiritual quest with Jesus, because Jesus was a good man and a man of truth.
But make sure you distinguish the truth in the Bible and the error, because Jesus said many things that have not been presented by the Bible.
The pure teachings of Jesus may be found in the Vedic teachings.
The New Testament has a model of a man who was what He talked. That is a big difference.
There are many spiritual belief systems with lofty ideals and teachings. And there is a Person in world history named Jesus of Nazareth who shattered history with the impact of three and one half years of living.
The world afterwards spoke of "Before Christ" and "In the year of our Lord" .
Christians have a historical model of the Godman, victorious over sin and death.
21 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillThe Vedic literature has enough knowledge that would easily fill 5000 books.
The Vedic has no model in history.
The New Testament has a model of a man who was what He talked. That is a big difference.
There are many spiritual belief systems with lofty ideals and teachings. And there is a Person in world history named [b]Jesus of Nazareth who shattered history with the impact of three and one half years of living.
T ...[text shortened]... [/b].
Christians have a historical model of the Godman, victorious over sin and death.[/b]
Vanashrama Society is the perfect society described in these literatures.
The Vedic teachings where existing hundreds of thousands of years ago, but only translated into English a few thousand years ago.
The perfect model is The Nectar of Devotion, Srimad Bhagavatams, Bhagavad Gita and hundreds of other literatures.
In all these literatures are the authentic spiritual teachings for the spiritual life, and without the need for animal slaughter.....but instead animal protection.
Your model is defective because it presents so much error.
21 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by vishvahetu=================================
The Vedic literature has enough knowledge that would easily fill 5000 books.
Vanashrama Society is the perfect society described in these literatures.
The Vedic teachings where existing hundreds of thousands of years ago, but only translated into English a few thousand years ago.
The perfect model is The Nectar of Devotion, Srimad Bhagavatams, Bha ...[text shortened]... ....but instead animal protection.
Your model is defective because it presents so much error.
Your model is defective because it presents so much error.
================================
What is the defect you see in Jesus Christ ?
This is important because the New Testament says that He who knew no sin, God made sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
So if this Lamb of God was seen as perfect and without sin, what is the "defect" you charge Jesus with ?
There is no defect in the man. That is why He is who He is. There are many many great and wise men. There is only one as the Son of God qualified to be the Savior of the world.
This not to say that there may be a lot of truth in the Vedic.
But where is its living testimony ?
Christ manifested the mingling and union of God and man in history.
21 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillI meant to write -
[b]=================================
Your model is defective because it presents so much error.
================================
What is the defect you see in Jesus Christ ?
This is important because the New Testament says that He who knew no sin, God made sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
So if this Lamb of God ...[text shortened]... ts living testimony ?
Christ manifested the mingling and union of God and man in history.[/b]
" This not to say that there may [not] be a lot of truth in the Vedic."
The exclusion of the word not was a typo.
21 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillI have always maintained the greatness of Jesus, he has no defect.......what are you fabricating now?.
[b]=================================
Your model is defective because it presents so much error.
================================
What is the defect you see in Jesus Christ ?
This is important because the New Testament says that He who knew no sin, God made sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
So if this Lamb of God ts living testimony ?
Christ manifested the mingling and union of God and man in history.[/b]
The Vedic testimony is there for the taking, but whose taking.
You cannot comment on Vedanta Sutra if you have not studied it.
I have studied the Bible, and do not make baseless comments.
The Vedanta Sutra has perfect truth and no error.
21 Jan 11
Originally posted by vishvahetu
I have always maintained the greatness of Jesus, he has no defect.......what are you fabricating now?.
The Vedic testimony is there for the taking, but whose taking.
You cannot comment on Vedanta Sutra if you have not studied it.
I have studied the Bible, and do not make baseless comments.
The Vedanta Sutra has perfect truth and no error.
22 Jan 11
6 edits
The Lord Jesus as our man's Redeemer should not be considered a third party but as God Himself. Sometimes we think too much that God is the mean one, God's Son is the gracious one. And the dept cannot be paid by the sinner, so the mean one's son comes in to pay for him.
This understanding is not that good because it views God as not loving the world but only concerned for His righteous demand. This concept presents God the Father as very harsh, severe, and mean. He is not lovable. But His Son is gracious to pay the dept to the mean and harsh God.
Although someone may still be saved under this kind of Gospel it is not really representative of all that is written in the Gospel. The Holy Spirit can still use a poor presentation of the Gospel to open one's heart to be saved.
But the Bible says "God so loved the world". He SO loved the world. This then is not a mean God only interested in payback of a dept. We are brought back to God through Jesus because God SO much LOVED the world.
It was the Father who was moved with compassion. It was the Father who loved us. It was the Father who planned man's salvation.
First the Father purposed everything, and then the Son came. It is not adaquate to the Gospel to think of three parties. There are really only two parties, God and man. The Lord Jesus is God's gift to man. However this gift is God and man mingled together as a living incarnation of the Person of God embodied.
There are not three ways for the problem of the sinner's dept to be paid: Ie.
1.) God can pay
2.) Man can pay.
3.) A third party can pay.
Rather there are only two ways to solve the problem
1.) God can pay
2.) Man can pay.
The righteous demand of the law of God requires payment for sins. There are only two parties who have the right to deal with the problem of sin. One is the one who has sinned against another. The other is the one who has been sinned against.
When a person sues another in court, no third party has the right to interfere and speak something. Only the one sinned against and the one who sinned have a right to say something.
The fact is that in the Gospel the one who has been sinned against assumes the punishment. It is the party that has been sinned against that bears the sins. It is not a third party. "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" (2 Cor. 4:19) - " ... the church of God which He [God] obtained through His own blood" (Acts 20:28) because the Son is God incarnate.
In His triune nature, the giving of God's only begotten Son, as inconceivable as it is, is God Himself coming as a man to provide the capital to pay the dept of man's sin. Two parties are involved rather then three parties.
The Father is God, the Son is God/Man, and the sinner is man.
God in Christ pays the dept of the righteous demand of the law of God.
The "giving" of the only begotten Son is the coming of God in humanity, actually giving Himself.
22 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillYou have certainly indoctrinated yourself for many years and the Bible stories are firmly plastered on your brain.
The Lord Jesus as our man's Redeemer should not be considered a third party but as God Himself. Sometimes we think too much that God is the mean one, God's Son is the gracious one. And the dept cannot be paid by the sinner, so the mean one's son comes in to pay for him.
This understanding is not that good because it views God as not loving the world bu ...[text shortened]... he only begotten Son is the coming of God in humanity, actually giving Himself.
This debt you talk of is the way the compilers of the Bible have emotionally attacked every person, to have them feel guilty with a debt to God that has been falsely fabricated......to entrap the people in psychological religious quilt, so they surrender to the church even though their intelligence tells them its all nonsense.
The Bible has no higher spiritual knowledge, so to get people to surrender to the church with out this knowledge, they use emotional pressure to seduce people to come to the religion.
Here are some false teachings that the Bible presents to make persons feel guilty and fearful, so they surrender to the religion.
1. People are falsely told, they only have one life before they die, so they must accept Jesus without delay, and if they dont they will meet eternal damnation in the lake of fire.
2. Jesus died painfully on the cross just for you, so you must pay that debt.
3. Christianity is the only religion and if you dont surrender to Jesus, you will meet with this damnation.
4. God sent his only son to suffer just for you, so you must remember he did this, and join Christianity or else you will suffer for not paying for this debt.
5. Adam ate the apple without permission and you are now carrying his original sin for eternity, so if you surrender to Jesus the sin will vanish.
6.If you dont accept Jesus you will not obtain immortality like all the other Christians have done, and your soul will cease to be.
7. Jesus is the little lamb, and the little lamb spilt all its blood just for you, so never forget this and pay your debt to Jesus.
8. The blood of Jesus is magical, and if you dont accept this blood your sins will not be washed away, and you will have not paid your debt.
So you see the tactics going on here, and what should happen in reality is that the religion should inspire a person to follow true spiritual living, by presenting higher knowledge of God, and explain the process of raising the consciousness to the transcendental platform by devotional practices.
The problem is that the Bible doesn't have true higher knowledge to inspire the person, but has fabricated knowledge from un-authorized persons.
This is a major problem that cannot be ignored, and sincere persons desiring to live true spiritual life, need to avail themselves to the true original spiritual teachings of the Vedas.
22 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by vishvahetu==========================================
You have certainly indoctrinated yourself for many years and the Bible stories are firmly plastered on your brain.
This debt you talk of is the way the compilers of the Bible have emotionally attacked every person, to have them feel guilty with a debt to God that has been falsely fabricated......to entrap the people in psychological religious quilt, so spiritual life, need to avail themselves to the true original spiritual teachings of the Vedas.
This debt you talk of is the way the compilers of the Bible have emotionally attacked every person,
=======================================
Accusation of the Devil is only meant to make one feel weak and condemned. The conviction of the Holy Spirit has no such purpose simply to make one feel bad - as an "attack".
There is forgiveness awaiting the sinner. God not only forgives the believer in Christ. He looks upon him as never having sinned at all. If there were no reconciliation provided then you could speak of a destructive "attack". Such is definitely not the case.
=====================================
to have them feel guilty with a debt to God that has been falsely fabricated......to entrap the people in psychological religious quilt, so they surrender to the church even though their intelligence tells them its all nonsense.
======================================
Your feeling guilty does not remove your offense. Your tears, nor your laughter do anything. It is our believing into Christ which removes the actual offense, the real transgression.
God is not interested in your tears or groveling or howling rolling on the floor "feeling" really bad. He is interested in your believing your way into Christ. He is not interested in you feeling bad. He is interested in you believing in the Son of God.
To be in His light causes you to know yourself. If you say you have no sin, you simply do not really know yourself.
========================================
The Bible has no higher spiritual knowledge, so to get people to surrender to the church with out this knowledge, they use emotional pressure to seduce people to come to the religion.
====================================
WHO in the Vedic can you point to as a definition and manifestation of all that God is? Who ?
The Bible has "the Word" who became flesh. This Person defines God, expresses God, explains God, and manifests God. "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father, full of grace and reality."
Who does the Vedic point to as the standard model of grace and reality ? I think you have no one and so you attempt to "borrow" Jesus as your Vedic representative. But Jesus belongs to the Bible and to the New Testament.
There is where you should learn about Him.
===============================
Here are some false teachings that the Bible presents to make persons feel guilty and fearful, so they surrender to the religion.
===================================
I emphatically testify to you that God has no interest in making me "feel" guilty just to make me feel guilty.
Even my tears need to be washed in the blood of Jesus, along with my feelings.
He wanted me to believe and receive the available Jesus as my Lord.
"When I see the blood, I will pass over you."
The redeeming blood of Christ is firstly for God to see. When you believe into Christ and God sees you in Christ, the great real passover of judgment will passover you. It is firstly God who needs to see you under the blood of Christ.
You just believe into Christ with thanksgiving and faith. "Lord Jesus, I do not bring to you my feelings. I bring to you firstly my faith."
If God showed us totally what we are in a moment in His eyes we would probably die of shock. The lights turn on gradually concerning what you have done in the past. And as those lights turn brighter you have peace already, because you have the inner assurance that ALL of it has been already judged on in Christ on His cross.
=======================================
1. People are falsely told, they only have one life before they die, so they must accept Jesus without delay, and if they dont they will meet eternal damnation in the lake of fire.
================================
My personal opinion is that probably rejection and unbelief is different from ignorance. Ie. "Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would not have sin; but now that you say, We see; your sin remains." (John 9:41)
I think how one reacts to the light of the world, Jesus, coming to you, is perhaps the most crucial thing. The case of ignorance may be up to theological discussion.
Regardless of this theological opinion of mine, the Person you would have to blame for warning man to have a sense of urgency about believing in the Son of God, is Jesus. You would have to blame Jesus for these kinds of warnings:
" ... I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24 - Jesus speaking)
Again, it is Jesus speaking on a parable of urgency to sieze the time. This is from the parable of the negligent but rich covetous man.
"But God said to him, Foolish one, this night they are requireing your soul from you; and the things which you have prepared, whose will they be?" (Luke 12:20)
Again, the words of Jesus:
"And He said to them, Struggle to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell You, will seek to enter, yet will not be able.
Once the Master of the house has risen and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, Lord, open to us, then He will anser and say to you, Ido not know you, [nor] where you are from.
Then you will begin to say, We ate in Your presence and drank, and You taught in our streets. And He will say, I tell you, I do not know where you are from. Go away from Me, all you workers of unrighteousness." (Luke 13:24-27)
The sense of prudent use of time and the sense of urgency come from Jesus Himself.
"While you have the light, believe into the light, so that you may become sons of light." (John 12:36)
The sense of taking the available opportunity to believe the Gospel comes from Jesus Christ Himself.
===================================
2. Jesus died painfully on the cross just for you, so you must pay that debt.
=================================
It was much more than the pain of the cross. It was something of which we know nothing. The fellowship with the Father was broken off and God made Him sin on our behalf. All the sins of the world were judged in His body.
We know nothing of what this meant to the Son of God. We are commanded to believe in Christ.
This death was like a blank check. Upon it there is no limit to the amount of money we may pen in. His death is more than enough to atone for the sins of the whole world.
We are called to receive Jesus as Lord and He will be our Savior.
b]=====================================
3. Christianity is the only religion and if you dont surrender to Jesus, you will meet with this damnation.
=====================================[/b]
The way is open wider then any other human way of salvation. Many here require that you be brilliantly intelligent, as if God only will reveal truth to those who are Quantum Physcists or Phds. in Biology.
They trust in their brilliant intellects as the only means they can know the most important truths of life.
"Whosoever BELIEVES into Him may not perish but have eternal life" is for a great leveler for the very smart as well as the average smart or not too smart.
========================================
4. God sent his only son to suffer just for you, so you must remember he did this, and join Christianity or else you will suffer for not paying for this debt.
=================================
As I said. The redeeming blood of Christ is firstly something that God requires to see. "When I see the blood, I will pass over you"
You don't have to understand that much. Believe that He is the Son of God.
Look again at the words of Christ carefully "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
He is the I AM. This man is the ever existing and self existing God come as a man. We are commanded to believe that He is the I AM.
Once we are in Him, God sees the blood covering us and He will passover us. WE have been judged already in this Godman upon His cross.
22 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillBlood doesn,t do anything except stain the carpet.
[b]==========================================
This debt you talk of is the way the compilers of the Bible have emotionally attacked every person,
=======================================
Accusation of the Devil is only meant to make one feel weak and condemned. The conviction of the Holy Spirit has no such purpose simply to make o ...[text shortened]... s. WE have been judged already in this Godman upon His cross.[/b]
I feels like I am talking to a machine.
22 Jan 11
4 edits
Originally posted by vishvahetu===============================
Blood doesn,t do anything except stain the carpet.
I feels like I am talking to a machine.
Blood doesn,t do anything except stain the carpet.
I feels like I am talking to a machine.
============================
Yes. On one hand I agree that blood, anyone's blood, only stains the carpet.
I believe that God has tied the whole matter up with so many mentions of the "blood" because the blood represents the life.
Do not get hung up on the chemical properties of human blood. I think that the frequent mentions of the blood assures that what is communicated is that the life of this man had eternal significance, eternal efficacy, eternal power, etternal effectiveness because it is the life of God as a man.
The separation of the blood from the body signifies that death has taken place. It is WHO has died which is so important.
He had to be a man in order to die. And He had to be God in order for the significance of that death to have eternal consquences and importance.
I am not suggesting anything superstitious. Instead of incredulousness, suppose a person believed ? Suppose a person goes into the privacy of his room and confesses his need for the Savior Jesus ?
Better still, suppose you began to confess your known sins one by one, thanking God that the blood of Jesus His Son has atoned for these sins ?
The peace that would rise up in your heart, you would know that what I am telling you is real. And if it didn't hit you today, it would hit you soon.
You believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus. It will hit you at some moment. Something has changed inside your being.
You didn't do anything, but surrender. And your innermost spirit comes alive. Another dimension that you never knew existed becomes real to you. The peace. The joy. The sense of being alright with your heavenly Father.
You look one day at the grass. It seems greener. You hear the birds. They somehow sound different.
Oh that some Christian here would confirm what I am saying. When you are born again, the missing dimension to life arises in your being.
God is not longer "God" - the subject of philosophical systems. He is suddenly your own dear Father.
He says that He will remove our sins from us as far as the east is from the west. This is infinity. He removes our guilt away from us infinitely far.
He doesn't just overlook them. They have been judged. You are justified. And you also justify God.
Being born again is a moment of mutual justification. The believing sinner says:
"God, You are right." Immediately God says "And YOU ... YOU are righteous!"
You justify God. God justifies you. You agree with God and God is in you from then unto eternity.
Isn't it even worth praying about ? Isn't it worth even having a good talk with God about ?
23 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillYes its great that you have become excited because you believe all your sins are forgiven.....but you have to stop sining.
[b]===============================
Blood doesn,t do anything except stain the carpet.
I feels like I am talking to a machine.
============================
Yes. On one hand I agree that blood, anyone's blood, only stains the carpet.
I believe that God has tied the whole matter up with so many mentions of the "blood" b ...[text shortened]... even worth praying about ? Isn't it worth even having a good talk with God about ?[/b]
Dont just say I have been atoned and then keep on sining.
If you keep on sining you will throw your atonement away.
23 Jan 11
3 edits
Originally posted by vishvahetu========================================
Yes its great that you have become excited because you believe all your sins are forgiven.....but you have to stop sining.
Dont just say I have been atoned and then keep on sining.
If you keep on sining you will throw your atonement away.
Yes its great that you have become excited because you believe all your sins are forgiven.....but you have to stop sining.
Dont just say I have been atoned and then keep on sining.
If you keep on sining you will throw your atonement away.
===========================================
One can never, never, never "throw ... away" his eternal redemption.
One can no longer throw away his eternal redemption then one can reverse his birth and again become unborn.
It is quite the contrary to what you imagine. THIS PARTICULAR THREAD 0f discussion is on the redemptive aspect of Christ's work. You are pushing the discussion into a different topic on the sanctification process. This one passage I quote illustrates the two aspects of God's full salvation:
" For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Romans 5:10)
1.) Judicial redemption
2.) Organic salvation
1.) Judicial redemption - "... we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son "
2.) Organic salvation - "much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled."
Legally, judicially, FIRST the believre is "reconciled to God through the death" of God's Son. And that for eternity, forever, irreversable.
Now, HAVING BEEN RECONCILED there is something "MUCH MORE" in store. That is the be SAVED in the realk and sphere of "His life".
Concerning the past - "RECONCILED" to God through Christ's redemptive death. Now then, "much more" - organically saved in His resurrection and indwelling life. Much more.
Your complaint is concerning the "much more" which you fear is much less and will not happen. The word of God says "much more" saved "IN HIS LIFE".
Going on in the book of Romans we read this:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin condemned sin in the flesh,
that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit." (Rom. 8:2,3)
The redeeming Christ becomes the indwelling Christ. In the form of the Holy Spirit He is joined and united with the born again human spirit. Now the believer, who has been reconciled to God, must learn to "walk by the spirit". That is move step by step in the realm of his spirit joined to the indwelling Spirit of Christ.
In this walk the "much more" organic saving from the sin nature occurs. It is a gradual growth and transformation. And the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in those who now walk by the indwelling spirit that is joined to the Holy Spirit.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) In this walk, in this habit and practice, sanctification takes place. And like the pioneer Paul one can say:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" ... I also excersize myself to always have a conscience without offense toward God and men." (Acts 24:16)
"Holding faith and a good conscience .." (1 Tim. 19a)
This is a matter of living up to the inward peace of conscience. This is not just being at peace about past forgiven sins. This is a matter of walking by the Holy Spirit so as to have no sense of having transgressed - a conscience void of offense, a good conscience.
Now this is a big area. And though you tempt me to redirect the entire discussion to this aspect of the Christian life, I am keeping this thread mainly on the judicial redemption.
Perhaps on another thread I will speak about the organic saving in the spiritual walk with a clean peaceful conscience. One may have indeed erred in 50 matters in 24 hours. The light of the Holy Spirit may make known to the believer 10 of those. Those 10 are enightened to his conscience. He is to deal with those 10 unto "life and peace" - "The mind set on the spirit is life and peace"
The other 40 are not made known to his conscience. As he walks on the light of God penetrates deeper and he is made known about the other matters, perhaps 10 more. Then he confesses and grows out of them. Then latter God reveals to him another 10 more. He confesses and grows out of them.
This process he never graduates from until he meets the Lord or he dies. Just as one is not instantaneously an adult when he is BORN the first time. One is also not instantaneously a spiritual adult when he is BORN AGAIN. But our God is our wise and living Father.
And step by step he is directed into the sanctification process. More light - deeper confession - deeper cleansing for deeper fellowship - that leads to more light - that leads to more confession - that leads to deeper cleansing and deeper fellowship - that leads to more light.
This CYCLE continues throughout the Christian walk. The matter is with our cooperation the Father's schedule.
But know this. One eternally redeemed can NEVER throw away that eternal redemption.
And number two, God is commited to work His life and nature into us until He presents us before Himself, not only judicially forgiven but organically transformed, fully sanctified and without spot or blemish or any such thing.
"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun in you a good work will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 1:6) He has begun and He will complete.
"But to Him who is able to guard you from stumbling and to set you before His glory without blemish in exultation, to the only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord; majesty, might, and authority before all time and now and unto eternity. Amen" (Jude 24,25)
He is ABLE. We are not able. But God our Savior is ABLE to present us before Himself without blemish.
23 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillMore light and deeper confessions, does not stop you sinning if your beliefs teach you to sin.
[b]========================================
Yes its great that you have become excited because you believe all your sins are forgiven.....but you have to stop sining.
Dont just say I have been atoned and then keep on sining.
If you keep on sining you will throw your atonement away.
===========================================
One c ...[text shortened]... E to present us before Himself without blemish.[/b]
Sin means error and the Bible teaches error.
On one hand you are being taught error, and on the other hand you are confessing.
Goes around in a circle, and is like putting fuel on the fire.
But why confess if you live by error.
Stop accepting error and living by error, and then confess.
You are accepting error as truth, because the Bible has been fabricated and is not authorized.
All the confessing in the world, will not bring you to the platform of purity which is necessary to associate with God.
23 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by vishvahetu===============================
More light and deeper confessions, does not stop you sinning if your beliefs teach you to sin.
Sin means error and the Bible teaches error.
On one hand you are being taught error, and on the other hand you are confessing.
Goes around in a circle, and is like putting fuel on the fire.
But why confess if you live by error.
Stop accepting erro ...[text shortened]... he world, will not bring you to the platform of purity which is necessary to associate with God.
More light and deeper confessions, does not stop you sinning if your beliefs teach you to sin.
===============================
How do you know? You have no experience yet of believing into Christ and walking in His indwelling presence.
How do you know the effect of clearing the way for Him to spread more and more into your personality is effective or not ?
You haven't yet let Him into you I think. So you have no experience to criticize.