19 Aug 08
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]There is no point in taking your "13 or so questions" and responding to them in detail.
[b]==============================
You're a funny kid.
This is twice now that you've evaded issues by asking questions and then cried "foul" when you haven't received responses to your questions.
You never really addressed the first (other than tangentially) and you continue to evade the second.
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but h led utterly to show deficiency in Paul's ministry or contradiction to His Master.
Like I've said:
"If you look at 1 John 5 in its entirety and come to understand the "larger picture", you'll also come to understand that your "questions" have, for the most part, been answered. You'll come to understand that insisting on pulling single verses out of context, can only result on false conclusions."
You've only succeeded in finding rationalizations so that you can "feel secure" in committing sin. The mind, in wanting to feel secure, readily dispenses with truth. For example, a rapist may justify his action by thinking, "The way she was dressed, she was asking for it." Wanting to feel secure in committing sin works along the same lines.
19 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIf you won't answer the 13 simply answer my post on Matthew 5:19.
There is no point in taking your "13 or so questions" and responding to them in detail.
Like I've said:
"If you look at 1 John 5 in its entirety and come to understand the "larger picture", you'll also come to understand that your "questions" have, for the most part, been answered. You'll come to understand that insisting on pulling single verses ng for it." Wanting to feel secure in committing sin works along the same lines.[/b]
How can one who annulls the least of the Lord's commandments and teaches men so be called LEAST in the kingdom of the heavens along with the other one who is called GREAT in the kingdom of the heavens?
How can both disciples be in the kingdom of the heavens?
Doesn't fit your theories does it?
Don't blame Paul or "cheap grace license to sin".
19 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillTry looking at the verse immediately following:
If you won't answer the 13 simply answer my post on [b]Matthew 5:19.
How can one who annulls the least of the Lord's commandments and teaches men so be called LEAST in the kingdom of the heavens along with the other one who is called GREAT in the kingdom of the heavens?
How can both disciples be in the kingdom of the heavens?
Doesn't fit your theories does it?
Don't blame Paul or "cheap grace license to sin".[/b]
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven"
You might want to make a distinction between where something is said and who is there. It seems that the scribes and Pharisees won't enter the kindom of heaven and would be called "least" in the kingdom of heaven.
You see what you want to see.
19 Aug 08
3 edits
You see ToO?
You have no way to deal with Matthew 5:19.
When the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail.
Here's a problem, Matthew 5:19. Your one set of handy tools are not able to fit it into your theology.
Maybe you need more time? Okay. Take all the time you need. I want to see how you deal with this "strange" passage - Matthew 5:19)
I notice now you have a reply. I'll look at it.
19 Aug 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne=================================
Try looking at the verse immediately following:
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the sc aven and would be called "least" in the kingdom of heaven.
You see what you want to see.
Try looking at the verse immediately following:
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven"
=========================================
So then how did the one who annuls the least of the Lord's commandments and teaches men to do so end up IN the kingdom of the heavens to be less honored than the other more obediant one?
You have to read the passage carefully. You are the one seeing only what one wants to see.
HOW did the LEAST of the TWO enter into the kingdom of the heavens to be less honored?
Why isn't he in the lake of fire - eternal perdition?
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You might want to make a distinction between where something is said and who is there. It seems that the scribes and Pharisees won't enter the kindom of heaven and would be called "least" in the kingdom of heaven.
=====================================
This is not the only parable that indicates levels or degrees of reward in the kingdom of the heavens. You also have the servant given authority over 10 cities and the servant given authority over 5 cities.
Here you have one honored as the least and one honored as great. Verse 19 is about those WHO HAVE ENTERED.
Do you want me to give you a better answer ?
Do you WANT to learn ?
19 Aug 08
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillInteresting that a lack of response in 25 minutes was taken by you to be proof that I have "no way to deal with Matthew 5:19". You've really lost perspective here. Seems like you're primarily interested in proclaiming yourself the "victor" and are looking for any little "sign" that that may be the case regardless of truth.
You see ToO?
You have no way to deal with [b]Matthew 5:19.
When the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail.
Here's a problem, Matthew 5:19. Your one set of handy tools are not able to fit it into your theology.
Maybe you need more time? Okay. Take all the time you need. I want to see how you deal with ...[text shortened]... "strange" passage - Matthew 5:19)
I notice now you have a reply. I'll look at it.[/b]
19 Aug 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOkay, you took a minute to adjust me on that. Fine. I SAID that I noticed you now had an answer.
Interesting that a lack of response in 25 minutes was taken by you to be proof that I have "no way to deal with Matthew 5:19". You've really lost perspective here. Seems like you're primarily interested in proclaiming yourself the "victor" and are looking for any little "sign" that that may be the case regardless of truth.
Now, where's the beef ??
19 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]Look at Young's Literal Translation:
[b]=================================
Try looking at the verse immediately following:
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you that unless y ENTERED.
Do you want me to give you a better answer ?
Do you WANT to learn ?
"Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands -- the least -- and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens."
He doesn't say that he will be in heaven. He says that the reign of the heavens will call him "least".
Think about who "may loose one of these commands" and "may teach men so": the scribes and Pharisees. Think about who will not enter the kingdom of heaven: the scribes and Pharisees. Think about who will be called "least": the the scribes and Pharisees.
You have to put it in context.
19 Aug 08
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillListen, it's not like I'm sitting around refreshing my screen every 2 minutes to check for every post that you make. I'm doing other things and check in intermittently. However, in your zeal to "win", you'll accept just about anything as "proof" that you have. I suspect that you do a similar thing when looking at scripture. Your pride seems to be getting the better of you. Your standard of "proof" seems to be exceedingly low.
Okay, you took a minute to adjust me on that. Fine. I SAID that I noticed you now had an answer.
Now, where's the beef ??
19 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOh dear. Its my pride again.
Listen, it's not like I'm sitting around refreshing my screen every 2 minutes to check for every post that you make. I'm doing other things and check in intermittently. However, in your zeal to "win", you'll accept just about anything as "proof" that you have. I suspect that you do a similar thing when looking at scripture. Your pride seems to be getting the better of you.
Take a WEEK. Think about it.
I am more interested in the truth than in "winning" an argument.
It is commendable that you seek a high standard of morality to be a follower of Jesus.
19 Aug 08
Originally posted by jaywillUnfortunately it is.
Oh dear. Its my pride again.
Take a WEEK. Think about it.
I am more interested in the truth than in "winning" a argument.
It is some commendable that you seek a high standard of morality to be a follower of Jesus.
Otherwise you would not have proclaimed the following after not getting a response in 25 minutes:
"You see ToO?
You have no way to deal with Matthew 5:19.
When the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail."
It's also unfortunate that since you feel secure in your sin, you likely won't take steps to remedy it. In fact, it seems that you are so secure, you can't even see it. You have eyes but cannot see.
19 Aug 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneJesus does not teach that one can continue to sin and be free from condemnation.--------ToO----------------------------
How is the slave freed from [b]committing sin? By continuing in His word. By knowing the truth. "The truth will make you free". Knowing the eternal (truth) will make you free. Jesus teaches freedom from committing sin.
In case you missed it the first time I posted it, the key here is that Jesus teaches that He frees one from committing sin.
Jesus does not teach that one can continue to sin and be free from condemnation.[/b]
What he teaches is that we can be forgiven on an on-going for our mistakes whilst we are on the path of righteousness and truth. It's built in to the Lord's prayer. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us"
Jesus clearly taught that we are to forgive and be forgiven for sin. If one is perfect and never sins then forgiveness is impossible. There is no need for confession before God and yet here it is built into the on -going prayer life that Jesus suggests for his followers.
This in your mind is a contradiction to Jesus's other teachings. But it is there nonetheless. My conclusion is this. Jesus talks about "committing" sin and "continuing" in sin. I think this may well be different from sinning per se where the sin is a failing or inadvertant or unintentional . This is different from "committing" sin where there is a conscious decision to sin (also known as wilful sin)
I think what Jesus says is that our COMMITMENT must be to sin no more , but elsewhere he shows that there is provision for human failings and sin (eg lord's prayer).
The key is to understand the difference between a man who is sinning wilfully and has no intention or desire to repent (committing sin?) and a man whose heart (commitment) is set on truth and righteousness but because of his sinful nature he still falls and requires cleansing and forgiveness.
This would require that God sees into men's hearts and is able to tell the difference. I tend to think that he might just be able to do this , don't you?
This would then makes sense of a man who is "committing sin" being in slavery to it , whilst a man who still sins but is trying his best is on the way to on-going freedom.
The only other way to resolve it would be to pretend that either the "slaves to sin" passage or the Lord's prayer do not exist. If you ignore the flies in the ointment they go away and the truth becomes elegant and simple. Unfortunately , being committed to the truth even when it challenges me, I cannot afford myself the luxury you do. It's messy and seemingly contradictory , but hey that's truth for you and I'm trying to make sense of it. You are not. Your truth may be elegant but it is also fragile to reality and evidence.
In comparison you will no doubt ignore the flies in the ointment and keep your head in the sand. Mind you I would love to see you dismiss the Lord's prayer and all that it implies. Is there anything that Jesus said or did that you are not prepared to ignore?
19 Aug 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterIt's simply a request for forgiveness. What does forgiveness entail? Under what conditions is it granted? You choose to infer particular answers to those questions based on what you wish to be true.
Jesus does not teach that one can continue to sin and be free from condemnation.--------ToO----------------------------
What he teaches is that we can be forgiven on an on-going for our mistakes whilst we are on the path of righteousness and truth. It's built in to the Lord's prayer. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass agains ...[text shortened]... here anything that Jesus said or did that you are not prepared to ignore?
"everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
The word poieo which is translated as "commits" here, means "to make or do".
If the intent of Jesus was to distinguish between "a man who is sinning wilfully and has no intention or desire to repent (committing sin?) and a man whose heart (commitment) is set on truth and righteousness but because of his sinful nature he still falls and requires cleansing and forgiveness", He does a really poor job.
The only thing that makes it "messy", is your insistence on "feeling secure" in sin.
If Jesus saw man's "sin nature" as something that couldn't be overcome, why does He ask this question?:
"Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?"
Instead He'd say things like, "Though your heart may be set on truth and righteousness, you will never be able to do the things which I say because of your sin nature."
It makes more sense that one's "sin nature" is the life that one must lose for His sake.
"...whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."
19 Aug 08
4 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneObsolete and erased.
Unfortunately it is.
Otherwise you would not have proclaimed the following after not getting a response in 25 minutes:
[b]"You see ToO?
You have no way to deal with Matthew 5:19.
When the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail."
It's also unfortunate that since you feel secure in your sin, you likely won't ...[text shortened]... fact, it seems that you are so secure, you can't even see it. You have eyes but cannot see.[/b]
19 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneToO,
Look at Young's Literal Translation:
"Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands -- the least -- and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens."
He doesn't say that he will be in heaven. He says that the reign of the hea be called "least": the the scribes and Pharisees.
You have to put it in context.[/b]
================================
Look at Young's Literal Translation:
"Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands -- the least -- and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens."
=======================================
Why is he in the REIGN of the heavens AT ALL ?
=================================
He doesn't say that he will be in heaven. He says that the reign of the heavens will call him "least".
==================================
I didn't say that it said he would be in heaven. I said it says he will be in the kingdom of th heavens. Or if you please "reign" of the heavens.
Why is he reigning at all ?
No answer yet.
========================================
Think about who "may loose one of these commands" and "may teach men so": the scribes and Pharisees. Think about who will not enter the kingdom of heaven: the scribes and Pharisees. Think about who will be called "least": the the scribes and Pharisees.
=========================================
Those who are left OUTSIDE are not called LEAST. They are OUTSIDE and don't even qualify to be participants in that reign.
"But I say to you that many will come from the east and the west and will recline at table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob int he kingdom of the heavens, But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness, In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 8:12)
How obsurd of you to suggest that those left OUT of the kingdom will be called the LEAST IN the kingdom.
Try again.
And and remember that as you appeal to "Context" so can some one else do so in your First John arsenal. Okay ?