14 Aug 08
1 edit
There is a difference between the CONVICTION of the Holy Spirit within a Christian and the ACCUSATION of the Devil.
The conviction of the Holy Spirit always brings with it love, supply, and forgiveness. Each day is a new day. You repent and believe in the cleansing blood of Jesus. Then you have a new chance to live Christ.
The accusation of the Devil is not corrective in nature. It is like a dripping facet. It simply drip, drip, drips all day long. It has the purpose to depress you and make you joyless.
When a Christian is under the Devil's accusation she may have thoughts like this:
"I might as well give up being a Christian. How could I have eternal life?? Even the Bible says that if I sin I don't have it. It is more humble for me to say I am not a Christian. At least then I am not so proud to say I am perfect. I feel terrible. I can never overcome my weakness and my sins. I don't have the right to call myself a Christian. It is better for me to be under this cloud of condemnation. This is more humble... to just admit defeat and give up."
This is the destructive result of Satan's accusation.
The conviction of the Holy Spirit does not give a believer feelings of self pity. There is no need to confess many times. You claim the cleansing of the blood of Jesus over your conscience, Any temptation to repent confessing is not of God. It is not repetition that cleanses a man from sin. It is the Blood of Jesus.
The theology presented by ToO, I fear, is the result of deception. Either it resulted in the poster accepting subtle accusation himself as a Christian or it is a evilly conceived device to use Satanic accusation with the Bible to undue the effectiveness of Christ's redemptive work.
14 Aug 08
Above, I do not mean that we only confess our sins at the initiation of being a discple and after that we never need to confess again.
When we are aware a sin we should imediately confess and claim the cleansing of the blood of Jesus.
The knowledge of specifics wrong doings becomes keener and keener as we grow in Christ. The need to make specific confession therefore deepens and deepens as we mature spiritually.
There is not instantaneous sinless perfection in character the second someone is born again.
The mature attitude is that displayed by Paul in the book of Phillipians. He forgets what is behind and everyday is stretching forward to gain Christ more and more.
14 Aug 08
3 edits
Originally posted by jaywillYou have evaded the issue.
[b]==========================================
You're going to have to decide what you believe here. Earlier you seemed to be arguing (mostly via Paul) that one can have "eternal life" while continuing to commit sin. Now you seem to be arguing that Paul says that this isn't true. Which is it?
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Sining is un tion to make myself perfectly clear to you you will probably say I am too verbose.[/b]
Earlier you claim that eternal life is not arrived at until after Christian maturity and back it with the words of Paul.
"Actually if you went through all the passages of Paul speaking about eternal life, I wager that the MAJORITY of them imply the enjoyment of eternal life as a destination to arrive AT AFTER Christian maturity.
This, I believe, is diametrically the opposite of your criticism of Paul. I read you as Paul teaching "cheap grace" or let us say "cheap eternal life".
But considering most of Paul's passages on life and eternal life, he actually displays the opposite tendency.
Here's one example from Paul's most basic epistle on Christian doctrine:
" To those who by endurance in good works seek glory and honor and incorruptibility, life eternal." (Romans 2:7)
What do you say then about Romans 2:7? Look at the context again.
"But, according to your hardness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each according to his works. To those who by endurance in good work seek glory and honor and incorruptibility, eternal life. But to those who are selfishly contentious and disobedient to the truth and obey unrighteousness, wrath and fury."
Now (and earlier) you make a different claim
(1) justification and redemption securing the GIFT of eternal life AND (2) sanctification and transformation for this life to imparted into the personality?
Which is it?
14 Aug 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhy the pretense that you've been called a liar unjustly.
I do not want to allow you to menuevor me into a position which seems to be encouraging Christians to sin. That is the danger of this defense.---------------jaywill-----------------------------
In his own mind he will manoevre you anyway . He has a polarised position. One must either be sinless (and have eternal life as a result) or you are making e ...[text shortened]... t he believes and he's sticking to it , no matter what.
btw- Has he called you a liar yet?
I've called you a liar, because you are a liar. You try to justify it by saying that it's only in an attempt to goad me into responding to your question, but they are lies nevertheless. The fact that you have persisted in doing so even after being made aware of it indicates an unrepentant heart. You lie habitually and repeatedly.
14 Aug 08
6 edits
Originally posted by jaywill"Release does not come from the Christian gritting her teeth to one more time try in her own power to resist temptation. That does not work. That is the law.
One problem here is that Christians do not overcome their weaknesses by getting absorbed by them. The more you struggle against sin in your own power the faster you will go down.
We have to look away to Jesus. We have to forget about our sins and enjoy the presence of Jesus.
It is easier for us to continue our striving in our own will power agai holder through a life time of beholding and reflecting into the same image of the Lord.
One must enjoy Jesus the living Person as their all and all. "Lord Jesus, I don't even want to deal with it. YOU deal with it."
This is the way of escape. This is the way to partake of the divine nature. We have to look away unto Jesus."
So you believe the answer is to divest yourself of all responsibility? Your only role is to enjoy yourself and let Jesus do the work? I suppose that continuing to commit sin is then the fault of Jesus since He has yet to "deal with it"?
It's this type of rationalization that explains the Dennis Rader's of the world. It explains how he could Bind, Torture and Kill ten people in the span of 14 years and still think of himself as "a good guy". After all, it wasn't his fault for doing so. Jesus had yet to "deal with it". What was he to do but enjoy his partaking of the divine nature?
14 Aug 08
8 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne[/b]
[b]"Release does not come from the Christian gritting her teeth to one more time try in her own power to resist temptation. That does not work. That is the law.
One must enjoy Jesus the living Person as their all and all. "Lord Jesus, I don't even want to deal with it. YOU deal with it."
This is the way of escape. This is the way to partake of the to "deal with it". What was he to do but enjoy his partaking of the divine nature?
=================================
So you believe the answer is to divest yourself of all responsibility?
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No. No. and No.
The answer is identification with Christ. The answer is taking the living resurrected Christ as your life.
Why do you think He said "Abide in Me and I in you." Those those are not sentimental words. Without abiding in Him we can do NOTHING. Or everything we DO do will amount to NOTHING.
He is the True Vine, we the believers are the BRANCHES. When you graft a weak plant into a stronger plant the life of the stronger plant will enter into the weak plant and make it healthy.
First, you have to be IMPRESSED that Jesus is indeed ALIVE. If you don't think He is risen and is alive then you cannot even get started. Okay? So first you must believe that He indeed LIVES.
Then you must through practice, through patience, learn to turn to your spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is. You turn your heart away from self effort and take the living Christ as your life. You ABIDE in Him.
Then you overcome in the same way GRAVITY overcomes a floating object. It is a LAW. It is even kind of scientific. It much like a scientific law:
What? Yes it is. Look here is where brother Paul comes in to be so very helpful:
:" ... the LAW of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (Rom. 8:2)
The LAW of the Spirit of Life is the SPONTANEOUS Power of the indwelling divine presence of Jesus to FREE the sinner. It is the LAW of the Spirit which is more powerful and stronger than the law of sin and death.
Again, in different words, the same truth:
"But I also say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh." (Gal. 5:16)
He said "by no means". That is as powerful as "the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus."
Again. Since the Christian is BORN of the Spirit - he should learn to WALK by the Spirit:
"If we live by the Spirit, let us ALSO walk by the Spirit." (Gal. 5:25)
In other words "We received the gift of eternal life through the Spirit. Now let us learn to walk, step by step, everyday by that SAME Spirit."
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Your only role is to enjoy yourself and let Jesus do the work?
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Listen. The enjoyment of Christ accomplishes ALSO God's eternal purpose. When I say the enjoyment of Christ that is another way of saying "experience the GRACE of Christ." The GRACE of Christ is the power and activity of Christ WITHIN the believer to be what the believer needs.
The grace of Christ is the enjoyment of having Christ live in you, in union with you, mingled with you, and joined to you. The grace of Christ is Christ as your life.
I will write more on this. Please don't think you can get this with one or two Internet posts. This is something we have to excercise to practice and be reminded of many times a day, let alone how many times in one's whole Christian life.
Paul's last word in the New Testament - "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." This is the apostle's utterance of the exact same truth as uttered by Jesus:
"Behold I am with you all the days, even to the consummation of the age."
We have to arrive at the place were we can say "It is no longer I that live, but it is Christ Who lives within me."
=========================
I suppose that continuing to commit sin is then the fault of Jesus since He has yet to "deal with it"?
===========================
I hardly want to dignify this question with an answer.
This is seems your conteptous way of belittleling the patient and loving way in which Christ seeks to grow gradually within the believer.
You change the Heavenly Father into a fidgity tyrant, a steel boss like a parent who expects the baby to walk home on its own from the hospital.
If we live by the Spirit let us also walk by the Spirit"
The fact of the matter is in brother Paul God secured for us a successful example of a disciple who learned the secrets to live the Christian life. He was by no means the only one. But his testimony and teaching we are fools to ignore. For you have Christ. And you have one who learned to live Christ.
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It's this type of rationalization that explains the Dennis Rader's of the world.
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I have no idea who that is. Nor do I care much.
What I am trying to share with you is the teaching of the New Testament confirmed by my own experience and that of many others down through centries.
The phrase "Abide in Me and I in you" is a particularly unique command. It says "You abide in my life and as a result my life will abide in YOUR life." This is like the grafting of a plant into another stronger and healthier plant. This is like the branches of a vine tree having the life juice and vitality od the vine flow into the branches.
Christ is everything we need. Christ exceeds all our desires. What we are not Christ is. We must be incorporated into Him in an "organic" union.
STEP ONE is you must believe that Jesus is Risen from the dead and is alive.
STEP TWO is you must believe that JESUS is alive and is within you because you RECEIVED Him into you.
Location - Location - Location.
Where IS Jesus ? You must believe and praise God that Jesus has indeed Risen from the tomb and has been imparted into your being.
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It explains how he could Bind, Torture and Kill ten people in the span of 14 years and still think of himself as "a good guy". After all, it wasn't his fault for doing so. Jesus had yet to "deal with it". What was he to do but enjoy his partaking of the divine nature?
=================================
We who are disciples of Jesus must learn to live Christ PERIOD. We have to learn to live Christ whether 1000 people were tortured in religious corruption or NO one was tortured.
Regardless of what has happened, whether good, bad, or indifferent, the disciple cannot avoid learning to abide in Christ so that Christ may abide in him.
No one is getting away with anything. There is the last judgment and there is also a judgment for those who are saved eternally. Did you not read "judgement BEGINS at the house of God."
The tortures and the excesses of Christianity are not a statement of the unreality of the Gospel. They are not a statement on the unreality of Christ. They are a statement on the depravity of man to lay hold of that which is most holy and most clean and most of the truth, to further his base purposes.
Don't blame that tragic history on Jesus. He told us that that would be the case. And don't blame it on Christians who seek to abide in Him and He in them as He Himself instructed.
And don't think anyone is getting away with anything. Are you a fool? Do think God is a fool? Did you read the Bible?
Regardless of the Spanish Inquisition of evil popes or whatever corruption with a "Christian flag" waving over it, Jesus says YOU follow Me. .
14 Aug 08
1 edit
Let us get down to a practical example.
You have for years had a habit of smoking pot. For some reason you decided to believe your Christian friend and one night you received Jesus into you spirit. You prayed:
"Lord Jesus, I confess I am a hopeless sinnner. Lord Jesus I have sinned against God and am good only to be judged by a righteous God. But I accept that you died for me that I could be forgiven. Lord Jesus I receive you as my Lord and Savior."
You get saved. You receive the gift of eternal life. You are born again.
You should be immediatly baptized by your Christian friend. If your wordly friends are there to see it that is good.
Now Thursday night comes around and your friends want you to join them in smoking pot.
The way to escape is by calling on the name of Jesus to contact Him, to stir Him up in your spirit. The way to resist is to call on the name of Jesus and touch Jesus.
"O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I love you. Lord Jesus I confess to you that I still love pot. But Lord Jesus I Love you too. Lord if you are better than pot please come to me now. I love you Lord. O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I love you."
Admittedly, this is going to be a little bit of a battle at first. It gets better. But you are just starting out. What you have done is not try to resist in your own power. You have turned your heart to Christ. You have entrusted your behavior to Him and called on His name.
POW !! the grace of Christ immediately begins to impower you. " I really DON'T like pot that much anyway" you think.
Huh? Where did that come from ??? It seems it was your OWN thought. But you never you never thought that way before. It seems SOMEONE is within you who is YOU.
It is mysterious. Though you do not fully understand you DO understand that a power and an ability is flowing through your being causing you to turn away from pot smoking. You are instead ENJOYING something ELSE. It is LIFE. IT is the Divine Nature. It is Christ in you.
You are set free because you turned to Jesus in your heart. After a number of experiences like this you are emboldened. "It really must be true. Jesus must really be ALIVE though I cannot see Him."
You tell your pot smoking buddies that Jesus really is alive. They return all kinds of reasons why that can't be true. After all there is the Spanish Inquisition. So shut up and have some pot with us.
By the experience of being set free from a number of old habits you come to believe more and more "The Bible must be true. The New Testament must be true. It was not me that overcame that sin. Yet in a mysterious way it WAS me. But is was me believing that JEsus was alive."
"You ask me how I know He lives? He lives within my heart."
15 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywill"Why do you think He said "Abide in Me and I in you." Those those are not sentimental words. Without abiding in Him we can do NOTHING. Or everything we DO do will amount to NOTHING.
=================================
So you believe the answer is to divest yourself of all responsibility?
====================================
No. No. and No.
The answer is identification with Christ. The answer is taking the living resurrected Christ as your life.
Why do you think He said "Abide in Me and I in you." Th g over it, Jesus says YOU follow Me. .[/b]
Agreed, though you seem to have a very different definintion of "abide". Abiding in Jesus IS following His commandments. Abiding in Jesus IS not sinning.
I don't know how you can continue to deny the following. Especially the words of Jesus.
John 15:10
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love"
John 14:21-24
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words
1 John 3:6:
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 2:3 -6:
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
15 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywill"There is not instantaneous sinless perfection in character the second someone is born again.
Above, I do not mean that we only confess our sins at the initiation of being a discple and after that we never need to confess again.
When we are aware a sin we should imediately confess and claim the cleansing of the blood of Jesus.
The knowledge of specifics wrong doings becomes keener and keener as we grow in Christ. The need to make specific co ...[text shortened]... ians. He forgets what is behind and everyday is stretching forward to gain Christ more and more.
One who is born again, does not sin. They have abandoned the life of the self (aka world, flesh) and have been reborn of the life of the truth (aka spirit).
Luke 9:23-24
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."
John 3:6-7
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."
John 12:25-26
"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour."
1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
15 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne===================================
You have evaded the issue.
Earlier you claim that eternal life is not arrived at until after Christian maturity and back it with the words of Paul.
"Actually if you went through all the passages of Paul speaking about eternal life, I wager that the MAJORITY of them imply the enjoyment of eternal life as a destination to arrive AT AFTER Christian d transformation for this life to imparted into the personality?
Which is it?
You have evaded the issue.
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No I have not evaded the issue. I have met the issue head on.
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Earlier you claim that eternal life is not arrived at until after Christian maturity and back it with the words of Paul.
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That is a misrepresentation of my position. Without going over all the previous ground gone over, I pointed out to you that Paul's usage of the phrases "life" [ZOE] and "eternal life" for the majority of cases show that its full enjoyment is arrived at through the process.
Full enjoyment of is not the possession of. Full enjoyment of is the climax of, the consummation of. This is the passage which I supplied as an example:
"To those who by endurance in good works seek glory and honor and incorruptibility, life eternal; But to those who are selfishly contentious and disobedient to the truth and obey unrighteousness, wrath and fury." (Rom. 2:7)
It is your problem that you cannot reconcile a Pauline passage like that with his other passages which talk about justification by faith. It is you who can only think of a dichotomy in terms of law keeping for eternal life verses justification by faith for eternal life.
For example: "For we account that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law." (Rom. 3:28)
Keep in mind that justification by faith declares that the sinner is positionally righteous. Christ Himself is the acceptable righteousness imputed to the believer. And because the believer is now in a righteous standing before God his spirit is made ZOE life - or eternal life is implanted into their spirit:
"The spirit [human spirit] is life because of righteousness" (Rom. 8:10b)
Because of justification by faith alone the innermost being of the believe - the human spirit is regenerated and becomes divine life. And that divine life is eternal life. This is the gift of the salvation of our spirit.
It is not my fault that YOU cannot be enlarged enough to embrace both Romans 8:10 and Romans 2:7.
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Quoting me you add:
"Actually if you went through all the passages of Paul speaking about eternal life, I wager that the MAJORITY of them imply the enjoyment of eternal life as a destination to arrive AT AFTER Christian maturity.
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Notice that I said the ENJOYMENT of eternal life. I did not say the POSSESSION of eternal life.
One may have a million dollars in the bank yet being naive about it live in poverty. Then one learns to spend the abundance of money that is there.
Possession is one matter. Enjoyment is utilizing what one possesses. Obviously it is not God's intention that we merely have the gift of eternal life and continue to live as fallen sons of sinful Adam.
Perhaps we will go to the parable of the ten virgins and I will make this matter clearer to those open minded readers.
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Further quoting me, you remind me that I said this:
This, I believe, is diametrically the opposite of your criticism of Paul. I read you as Paul teaching "cheap grace" or let us say "cheap eternal life".
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That is right. And I still stand by that for as of yet I have not seen you acknowledge that Romans 2:7 could NOT be charged as a teaching of "cheap grace".
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You go on to quote me more:
But considering most of Paul's passages on life and eternal life, he actually displays the opposite tendency.
Here's one example from Paul's most basic epistle on Christian doctrine:
" To those who by endurance in good works seek glory and honor and incorruptibility, life eternal." (Romans 2:7)
What do you say then about Romans 2:7? Look at the context again.
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Thankyou for reminding me of what I wrote. And I still stand by my point.
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Now (and earlier) you make a different claim
(1) justification and redemption securing the GIFT of eternal life AND (2) sanctification and transformation for this life to imparted into the personality?
Which is it?
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As you can see I listed 1 and 2. It is your failure to not comprehend 1 AND 2 and think that it could only be 1 OR 2.
It is your failure also to comprehend what I wrote about First Corinthians chapter 3.
Some of the Christians will lose the reward but be saved yet as through fire. You apparently cannot understand the difference between GIFT and REWARD.
Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Did you get the contrast there between WAGES and GIFT. Paul did not write that the wages of SIN is death and the WAGES of righteousness is eternal life. Did he?
GIFT is juxtaposed against WAGES. That which is freely given is contrasted against that which is earned as a pay.
The same writer also speaks in this way:
" ... grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom. 5:21)
The phrase "unto eternal life" implies a process in view of an outcome consumating in eternal life. Or better still we go back to Romans 2:7 - "To those who by edurance in good work seek glory and honor and incorruptibility, life eternal."
This life is the Person of Jesus Christ Himself. As long as we have the Person of Jesus we have the eternal life. As the Person of Jesus spreads into all of our being we come more and more into the enjoyment of that eternal life.
Eventually Paul says that the believer will be "swallowed up" completely by this divine and eternal life:
" .. we desire not to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (2 Cor. 5:4)
Notice however that before this consummate swallowing up of all our mortality by the divine life the believers have a "pledge" of the Spirit that this will take place.
"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge." ( v. 5)
The Spirit as a pledge is a foretaste. He is a appetizer and a gaurantee of what is to come. And the Spirit is the same eternal life:
"The Spirit of life" (Romans 8:2)
"The Spirit gives life" (2 Cor. 3:6)
"The last Adam became a life living Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
"It is the Spirit who gives life" (John 6:63)
So having the pledge of the Spirit is having the life of God. And being swallowed up in life is the the climax - the fullest enjoyment of what the Christian possesses as a pledge until that time.
Not only does the Christian have eternal life by means of having the pledge of the Spirit of life (2 Cor. 5;5). But this pledge of the Person of the Holy Spirit of eternal life is also the seal:
"He has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." ( 2 Cor. 1:22)
The seal and the pledge of the Spirit is a foretaste of a fuller taste to come. The pledge and the seal are eternal life and the climax, the swallowing up of our mortality is also the same eternal life.
The same truth as in 2 Cor. 1:22 and 2 Cor. 5:5 is echoed in Ephesians 1:13:
" ... in Him also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory."
The foretaste and seal possessed all through the Christian life is the Holy Spirit of divine eternal life. And the climax is the swallowing up of the Christians entire being in that same divine life.
15 Aug 08
3 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne====================================
[b]"There is not instantaneous sinless perfection in character the second someone is born again.
One who is born again, does not sin. They have abandoned the life of the self (aka world, flesh) and have been reborn of the life of the truth (aka spirit).
Luke 9:23-24
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF ssing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.[/b]
One who is born again, does not sin. They have abandoned the life of the self (aka world, flesh) and have been reborn of the life of the truth (aka spirit).
=========================================
This is like saying "One who is born goes to college, holds a job, gets married, and raises a family."
But we would not expect a new born infant or a pre-adolescent or teenager to do these things without the process of growth.
On one hand "One who is born raises a family" is true. But much growth after birth must take place for a human being to arrive at that function.
You would not scold a newborn baby about why he has not yet found someone to marry and raised a family. But you would feed, cherish, and nourish that infant. And in the process of time, with growth and maturity the full functioned human life will be manifested.
In the same way, the awareness of sins commited grows keener and sharper after one is born again.
I already told you, yet you ignore me, that in First John the Apostle delineates three groups of disciples - "litte children, young men, and fathers."
Obviously then those born again are at different levels of spiritual maturity.
In your erroneous theology perhaps only the "fathers" are born again in First John while the "little children" and the "young men" are not yet born again. This is foolishness.
==================================
Luke 9:23-24
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."
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This is concerning following the Lord and not concerning receiving the gift of eternal life. It concerns the salvation of the soul and not the salvation of the human spirit.
The salvation of the human spirit is for the spirit to be regenerated - born of the Holy Spirit. The salvation or saving of the soul is the transformation of the soul. The soul is the personality consisting of the mind, emotion, and will.
The salvation of the spirit takes only a nano second. The salvation of the soul is a process of sanctification and transformation.
Even in denying oneself there is the need for the self to be progressively revealed. You deny yourself to believe that Jesus is Lord today. Tomorrow you deny yourself to spend more time studying the Bible rather than going to the movies. The next week the Lord touches you to further deny yourself by stop arguing with your spouse. The next week God touches you to deny yourself by setting aside a specific time to pray. The next month the Holy Spirit speaks to you to deny yourself and forgive someone whom you have had a grudge against for ten years. The next month God tells you to further deny yourself and spend time to care for a unfortunate neighbor.
Then next year the Lord further tells you to deny yourself and give a greater portion of your income to the work of ministry. Then as you go on in more and more areas God touches you to deny yourself.
Eventually you are living Christ is more and more details of you life.
Your erroneous theology denies the Christian reality of transformation and growth.
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John 12:25-26
"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour."
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This passage does not teach that keeping the law will cause you to be born again.
It is a call however to learn to love Christ and take Him as life to serve Him. The climax of such a life is the full enjoyment of the gift of eternal life.
This passage does not say the someone does not have eternal life. It says that he has too many other distracting things other than eternal life.
He has both the distractions and the thing of real value. He must turn from the distracting inferior things to enjoy the real thing of value.
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1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
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This passage does not prove that law keeping will result in being born again.
15 Aug 08
6 edits
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]You often seem to lose the intent of the post, like you have here. You comment on each line (except for the ones you ignore because you can't manage to distort them into your beliefs) as if they were made independently of the others. This makes it exceedingly difficult to have a meaningful dialogue with you.
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You have evaded the issue.
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No I have not evaded the issue. I have met the issue head on.
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Earlier you claim that eternal life is not arrived at until after Christian maturity and back it with the words of Paul.
tians entire being in that same divine life.
Your belief system is full of contradictions that you manage to prop up by dispensing with logic and reason and by distorting the words of Jesus. It's evident that no manner of reason will help you find the truth. I can only hope that someday you manage to stumble across it.
The truth will make you free. Yes, FREE. In your belief system, it seems the best one can hope for is to feel good about remaining a slave. You speak of me bringing a message from Satan, but what more could Satan ask for but slaves who feel good while remaining slaves?
Good luck.
15 Aug 08
8 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneToO,
You often seem to lose the intent of the post, like you have here. You comment on each line (except for the ones you ignore because you can't manage to distort them into your beliefs) as if they were made independently of the others. This makes it exceedingly difficult to have a meaningful dialogue with you.
Your belief system is full of contradi t what more could Satan ask for but slaves who feel good while remaining slaves?
Good luck.[/b]
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You often seem to lose the intent of the post, like you have here. You comment on each line (except for the ones you ignore because you can't manage to distort them into your beliefs) as if they were made independently of the others. This makes it exceedingly difficult to have a meaningful dialogue with you.
Your belief system is full of contradictions that you manage to prop up by dispensing with logic and reason and by distorting the words of Jesus. It's evident that no manner of reason will help you find the truth. I can only hope that someday you manage to stumble across it.
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What I do not see from you is a point by point refutation of my sentences - most of them.
Perhaps you should answer some questions for us:
1.) Was the audience to whom John wrote comprised of born again Christians?
2.) If so then why does he exhort them "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)
Please answer. If commiting a sin is an impossible for these readers of his epistle why is there any thought at all from John to instruct them how do deal with them?
3.) Was the apostle John not born again also since he included himself in his instructions for confessing?
"if WE confess OUR sins ..."
4.) Why do the readers of 1 John need Jesus Christ to be an Advocate with the Father on thier behalf ? If they are not capable of any longer offending the Father why should they need an Advocate?
"My little children, these things I write to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for those of the whole world. " (1 John 1:1,2)
According to your concept the world needs an Advocate but the sinless born again disciples should no longer require one. There should be no longer any occasion for them to have need for advocacy towards the Father for sins.
Please explain this.
5.) Concerning keeping the Lord's commandments: John writes:
"But whoever keeps His word, truly in this one the love of God has been perfected. IN this we know that we are in Him." (1 John 2:5)
How can the love of God be perfected in these ones? Either they are not born again and it is not perfect or they ARE born again and it is perfect?
Where is there any room of an ongoing perfecting? Human beings would either be perfect or not perfect according to whether or not they are born again, according to your doctrine.
Can you explain this?
6.) And how can John say this:
"He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause of stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in the darkness ..." (1 John 2:10,11a)
Wait a minute. If a born again person loves his brother that makes sense. But if he hates how can it be his brother whom he hates? According to your theology the hating one cannot be born again so the Christian whom he hates is NOT therefore his "brother" in Christ. In your theology they do not have God as their father. The born again one has God as his Father but the hating one is not born of God and is therefore not in the brotherhood.
Explain then how 1 John 2:10,11 fits into your theology.
7.) How do you also explain 1 John 3:20 ?
"Because if our heart blames us, it is because God is greater than our heart and knows all things."
John includes himself - "if OUR heart blames US."
But according to your theology if John is born again there is no possibility that his heart would blame him for anything anymore. He is incapable of offending God or his own conscience because he is born again.
Explain why those born again with sinless perfection should require instructions about the event that their hearts should blame them for something.
Why would the born again perfect sinless ones have to be concerned about self blame of any kind or of God knowing more details than their limited heart would know?
8.) I would further ask you. Can a person not be born again and yet God abides in him?
"Whosoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God." (1 John 4:15)
But if one confesses that Jesus is the Son of God and still has sins to overcome, according to this passage, he still has God abiding in him.
Do you then teach that someone could have God abiding in him and not be born of God - not be born again ?
9.) If this is the case that a person who is not born again can have God abiding in him and he in God, then WHAT is it to be born again?
What is born then? Do you mean that apart from him receiving God there is a spiritual birth ?
Is there then something GREATER than God that he receives that gives him more life than the God who abides in him already?
10.) "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten of God ... " ( 1 John 5:1)
If everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten of God than is there ANOTHER experience called being "born again" in case that the believer that Jesus is the Christ still has some sins to overcome?
How does that work?
11.) Why didn't John reaffirm that the one living a sinless life and keeping the commandments of Christ is the one who has been begotten of God?
12.) John says that whoever has the Son has THE life:
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son does not have the life." (1 John 5:12)
Is the eternal life a different life from "the life" ?
John did not say here "He who has sinlessness in his behavior has the life." He said he who has the Son has the life.
Are you saying that a sinner cannot have the Son if he believes but is not sinless ?
13.) John says "I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)
But some of his audience (including himself in the "we" passages, are instructed what to do if they sin. Then WHY did not John write I write these things to you that you may know thay you [WILL have] eternal life once you are sinless in behavior" ?
How can the Apostle ASSURE his audience that they [b]"HAVE eternal life" when some of them obviously need exhortations to confess when they sin ?
I await your detailed answers to these questions to see if YOUR theology fits into the passages.
16 Aug 08
3 edits
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]"What I do not see from you is a point by point refutation of my sentences - most of them.
ToO,
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You often seem to lose the intent of the post, like you have here. You comment on each line (except for the ones you ignore because you can't manage to distort them into your beliefs) as if they were made independently of the others. This makes it exceedingly difficult to have a meaningful dialogue w s to see if [b]YOUR theology fits into the passages.[/b]
Perhaps this gives a clue to your approach. It appears that you take each sentence as if it stands on its own. In doing so, you lose the context and the therefore the larger meaning. In other words, you can't see the forest for the trees.
For example, here you've pulled out select verses from 1 John 5 and assigned meaning to each one while ignoring the rest.
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten of God ... " ( 1 John 5:1)
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son does not have the life." (1 John 5:12)
"I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)
There are other verses in 1 John 5 such as:
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments." (1 John 5:2)
" For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome." (1 John 5:3)
"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him." (1 John 5:18)
Try reading 1 John 5 as a whole. John seems to be trying to describe various indicators that can help one discern if one has "overcome the world", been "born of God" and therefore has eternal life.
To help you understand the folly in your approach, suppose there's a book describing a good tennis player with the following concepts spread throughout.
"A good tennis player has a strong serve....A good tennis player has a strong forehand...A good tennis player has a strong backhand...."
It appears that what you are doing is focusing on only one concept, such as "a strong serve", and then insist that to be a strong tennis play all you need do is develop a strong serve. You then point to all the sentences that mean, "A good tennis player has a good serve" as your "proof".