05 Mar 12
Originally posted by Rajk999It means what it says, again where does it say it is okay to sin?
What does this mean .. per JosephW..
Believers will be judged, but not for sin. The penalty for sin was paid for by Jesus on the cross.
This means that you Christians can sin and not do good works and not be judged for it because Christ paid the penalty for your sins.
Christ said no such thing. Christ is going to judge you by your works.
Kelly
05 Mar 12
Originally posted by jaywillI am perfectly aware of Russels attempts to find some significance in the ancient
Sorry to upset you so. I am not trying to do that.
However, your ironic reference to Neoplatonic metaphysics may be interesting. Yes, some Christian apologist may have foolishly relied on Greek philosophy to defend against attacks against Christianity.
However, your founder Charles Russell had a preoccupation with pyramids and ancient Egyptian nume ...[text shortened]... round this metaphysical honoring pyramid erected on Charles Russell's grave in Pennsylvania.
pyramids, after all, I do have his earliest books. Russell was not inspired, and had
many erroneous ideas, so what, so did the apostles of Christ, we are not followers of a
man, we are witnesses of God and are constantly revising our teaching as our
understanding permits.
05 Mar 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRight. " That's different, that's different. We're on top of that. "
I am perfectly aware of Russels attempts to find some significance in the ancient
pyramids, after all, I do have his earliest books. Russell was not inspired, and had
many erroneous ideas, so what, so did the apostles of Christ, we are not followers of a
man, we are witnesses of God and are constantly revising our teaching as our
understanding permits.
The last couple of times you have tried to hurl accusations against orthodox Christians with "mental illness" and "metaphysics" your double standard has gotten pie in the face. I suggest you think carefully before you shoot.
So, some Christian brothers may have thought Plato could render them some dubious help on understanding the ways of God.
And some founders of Watchtower Society thought Egyptian Metaphyics might be of use to them.
Right. It doesn't mean either one of us has to follow such examples.
06 Mar 12
1 edit
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9.
"… knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ … for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." Galatians 2:16
"Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin … for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:20,23
"I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee." Isaiah 57:12
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6
"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:27-28
06 Mar 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillthe difference of course being, we have abandoned any teaching that we have found to be incongruous with Biblical
Right. " That's different, that's different. We're on top of that. "
The last couple of times you have tried to hurl accusations against orthodox Christians with "mental illness" and "metaphysics" your double standard has gotten pie in the face. I suggest you think carefully before you shoot.
So, some Christian brothers may have thought Plato could ...[text shortened]... b] them.
Right. It doesn't mean either one of us has to follow such examples.[/b]
understanding whereas you are still venerating a doctrine introduced by uninspired church fathers, ratified at a synod
presided over by a pagan emperor and endorsed by bishops who just happened to be given positions and power by
said emperor. This of course thoroughly refutes your slanderous assertion of doubler standards. You tern Calvin a
brother, a murderous, joyless, self righteous megalomaniac who had innocent persons burned to death because they
dared to question his authority and here you are speaking of what is Christian and what is not, how can Christ be so
alien to you people? how can you self righteously claim that another's appreciation is baseless because of your
doctrinal understanding?
If a Christian is identified by love, where is the love, where is the willingness to impute pure motives to others, love
after all, believes all things? You claim it, where is it? If we are to stop judging, why have you judged me as lacking in
appreciation because of your doctrines? That is the Christian standard, is it not? I myself stated that we are all at
different levels of understanding, no one is the finished article, why are you unable to do the same? why must you
vindictively attempt to discredit others because they do not accept your doctrines? was the Christ ever vindictive? no,
then why are you? you claim it, where is it?
(1 Thessalonians 5:14-15) 14 On the other hand, we exhort you, brothers, admonish the disorderly, speak consolingly
to the depressed souls, support the weak, be long-suffering toward all. See that no one renders injury for injury
to anyone else, but always pursue what is good toward one another and to all others.
Is that not the Christian standard?
06 Mar 12
As entertaining as it is to sit back and watch you guys pillow fight with Bible verses......
I've been considering both sides of this debate and it seems to me that very good points are being made by everyone involved. I like what robbie and rajk have to say regarding the monumental importance of holiness, love and peace being tangibly evident in a Christ-follower's life, and the ambiguity and insufficiency of mere belief. I like equally well the points made by km and kelly regarding the all-sufficiency of Christ's propitiatory sacrifice toward those washed clean and born-again in the blood through faith, as well as the insufficiency of our own righteous acts to, paradoxically, earn grace (that which by definition cannot be earned).
The crux (so to speak) of the problem in this thread-debate, in my opinion, is that a true argument isn't taking place here. There's plenty of negative emotion, accusations and other fireworks that give the impression an argument is taking place, but the fact is, one isn't. In order for an argument to exist, both sides need to be talking about the exact same thing, but with contradictory positions. I think you are definitely talking about the same thing. The problem is your positions aren't truly contradictory.
The case made by robbie and rajk, explicitly touting works, implies faith. The case made by km and kelly, explicitly touting faith, implies works. So the real issue here is not faith vs. works; the real issue is much more pedestrian.
Km and Kelly are stressing "right belief" in order to distinguish themselves from people like Robbie and Rajk (Robbie and Rajk being unsaved heretics (i.e., not real Christians) who don't know Christ and therefore insist on divorcing Christ-following from "right belief" ). Robbie and Rajk are stressing "works" in order to distinguish themselves from people like Km and Kelly (Km and Kelly being unsaved heretics (i.e., not real Christians) who are hypocrites hellbent on divorcing Christ-following from "works" ).
The real issue here is vanity, expressing itself as the need to be right.
06 Mar 12
Originally posted by epiphinehasI believe we need to walk in Holiness and doing good works, I have never
As entertaining as it is to sit back and watch you guys pillow fight with Bible verses......
I've been considering both sides of this debate and it seems to me that very good points are being made by everyone involved. I like what robbie and rajk have to say regarding the monumental importance of holiness, love and peace being tangibly evident in a C ...[text shortened]... ).
The real issue here is vanity, expressing itself as the need to be right.
once even hinted those things were either unimportant or unnecessary!
I’ve been accused of saying those things by someone who cannot quote me
directly saying it, instead he mind reads into things said and claims I and
others have implied it. (dishonest practice)
Since my righteousness is in Christ and not my own does that give me any
license to sin and treat Jesus sacrifice as a get out of jail free card so I can
do anything I want, no. Those that give themselves to sin are bound by it
it holds them in check as long as people play with it, it will keep them
bound to sin. With Jesus Christ we can be set free from sins power over
our lives, in the here and now. Christianity isn’t just a you’ll see it in the next
life religion it is a real God in the here and now religion.
You can have a million billion people doing good works all day ever day,
and if you are going to stand before God in your own righteousness due
to all the good works you have done, you are on your own in your own
righteousness before a Holy God who does not accept sin.
Kelly
06 Mar 12
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Originally posted by epiphinehasIf their beliefs are correct it should be evident in their actions,
As entertaining as it is to sit back and watch you guys pillow fight with Bible verses......
I've been considering both sides of this debate and it seems to me that very good points are being made by everyone involved. I like what robbie and rajk have to say regarding the monumental importance of holiness, love and peace being tangibly evident in a C ).
The real issue here is vanity, expressing itself as the need to be right.
(Matthew 11:19) . . .All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.”
Is it not the case? Right belief leads to right actions. As that belief percolates from
the mind to the heart, the figurative seat of motivation, it will move the adherent to
put on the mind of Christ, (1 Cor 2:16) and he will be moved to adopt the 'new
personality', which the Bible states, (Col 3:9), is created through accurate
knowledge of the Image of the one who created it.
If this is the case, how are we to explain the self righteous condemnation?, how are
we to explain the condescension, how are we to explain the vindictiveness, how are
we to explain assigning to others values that they do not profess, how can we
explain the inability to impute pure motives to others in any terms other than, either
they do not know Christ despite their pretensions or their right belief is in fact not
right at all, for if it was, it would lead to right action, as the scripture states, 'wisdom
is proved righteous by its works'.
I was willing to accept difference of doctrine for despite the fact that i do not profess
those elements, i understand that those who do, believe them out of sincerity, but to
insist that another's appreciation is valueless on the basis of their understanding is
about as arrogant as it gets and although i simply wanted to avoid them, i could not
let it pass. I still think its best simply to avoid them.
I would just like to add, not once have i stated that works are necessary for
salvation, no not once.
06 Mar 12
Originally posted by epiphinehasAh. The quiet voice of wisdom speaks. I agree entirely.
As entertaining as it is to sit back and watch you guys pillow fight with Bible verses......
I've been considering both sides of this debate and it seems to me that very good points are being made by everyone involved. I like what robbie and rajk have to say regarding the monumental importance of holiness, love and peace being tangibly evident in a C ...[text shortened]... ).
The real issue here is vanity, expressing itself as the need to be right.
However , I do not feel for me at least that this is about vanity. The point you make is that it's about the emphasis we place on certain things. I feel it's quite clear in the NT that there is a lot of emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer and that what the NT describes is this extra spiritual dimension that takes it away from OT legalism.
Rajk does not respond to any questions about the Holy Spirit and does not seem to recognize the concept of grace. Whilst I accept the importance of works and take on board what he is saying , he seems incapable of taking on board what I and others are saying.
This makes meaningful debate virtually impossible.
06 Mar 12
Originally posted by Rajk999How many works does one need in order to not be turned away by Christ? Is there a figure on this? If there is I would like to know so that I might stand before the Holy fire of God with my (x number of) good works as my shield.
What does this mean .. per JosephW..
Believers will be judged, but not for sin. The penalty for sin was paid for by Jesus on the cross.
This means that you Christians can sin and not do good works and not be judged for it because Christ paid the penalty for your sins.
Christ said no such thing. Christ is going to judge you by your works.
None of us will be able to say to God that we have lived a perfect life and done absolutely everything we could to help other all the time. Even you Rajk will not be able to say this. Otherwise you would sell your computer and give the money to the poor instead!
But you have not done so - therefore you have fallen short of what you could have done. Will Christ let you off or judge you?
06 Mar 12
Originally posted by Rajk999I hope you are not saying that we can claim to have faith, and then proceed to sin and do evil works and still get eternal life. Are you ?
Read over the post. I explained it.
We are saved from the sin which we inherited from Adam through the death of Christ. Christ death paid the ransom for us. That is what is meant by 'saved by grace'.
Christ death does not save everyone, neither does it automatically give everyone salvation who simply proclaims their faith in Christ.
So my counter qu ...[text shortened]... have faith, and then proceed to sin and do evil works and still get eternal life. Are you ?
-----------rajk-----------------------------
Of course he's not saying this. Why do you cling to these strawmen of yours?
06 Mar 12
Originally posted by Rajk999What a sad thing to say. Do you have no interest in the Spirit? Do you not realize that people can come to faith without the Bible through the work of the Holy Spirit?
Ok. Any references?
God does not need "references" . His Spirit moved upon the face of the earth long before the Bible even existed.
06 Mar 12
2 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasWell Epi, now that you have joined the rest of us vain people with your post, let me drag you in further.
As entertaining as it is to sit back and watch you guys pillow fight with Bible verses......
I've been considering both sides of this debate and it seems to me that very good points are being made by everyone involved. I like what robbie and rajk have to say regarding the monumental importance of holiness, love and peace being tangibly evident in a C ).
The real issue here is vanity, expressing itself as the need to be right.
You for one should know that I dont tout works only, as we have been down this road many times before.
Faith and works are both important.
The clear teachings of the Bible are that :
1. A man cannot obtain salvation on the basis of faith alone without works.
2. A man cannot obtain salvation on the basis of works alone without faith.
Its KM and company who are claiming that its their faith or 'personal relationship with Christ' is what will give them eternal life, and that works are not important .. [anyone can do good works .. billions of people do good works every day .. therefore its of no value..]
So from my corner it is not a faith v works argument.
06 Mar 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterThis is what was stated by Jaywill, who appears to be of the same religious beliefs as yourself.
I hope you are not saying that we can claim to have faith, and then proceed to sin and do evil works and still get eternal life. Are you ?
-----------rajk-----------------------------
Of course he's not saying this. Why do you cling to these strawmen of yours?
ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.
Once you are baptised into Christ you cannot lose your salvation. You get eternal life no matter what sins you commit thereafter. Are you of the same belief.