30 Mar 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneNot at all, I just don't see what greatness has to do with understanding, you have yet to explain it. Also, what is ultimate reality?
Are you just messing with me?
Take any work of art or music that you consider 'great' and explain what makes it great.
30 Mar 07
Originally posted by StarrmanI'm hoping that if you go through the exercise I proposed, it'll help you to understand.
Not at all, I just don't see what greatness has to do with understanding, you have yet to explain it. Also, what is ultimate reality?
We'll get to ultimate reality after that.
30 Mar 07
Originally posted by StarrmanI've tried to explain. The problem is that I don't know what you don't understand. It seem pretty self-evident to me that for someone to achieve greatness in a given area, he would need a high level of understanding of that area. What you don't understand about this is beyond me. That's why I asked if you were messing with me.
How about you just explain, instead of playing games.
31 Mar 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThis is getting silly. You claim that greatness is born of understanding, but you've yet to show how or why. You can perform any number of great acts without understanding them; you haven't even clarified what the understanding consists of, do you mean understanding the act itself, or the factors that give rise to it?
I've tried to explain. The problem is that I don't know what you don't understand. It seem pretty self-evident to me that for someone to achieve greatness in a given area, he would need a high level of understanding of that area. What you don't understand about this is beyond me. That's why I asked if you were messing with me.
It would be quite possible, for example, to dive in front of someone and take a bullet for them but not understand why you did it, or gain any understanding after the act. I'd consider this an act of greatness, with no understanding. Likewise one might wake up one morning and be filled with the desire to paint, you might paint for days without sleep in a maddened frenzy and produce a masterpiece and yet have no understanding of the factors that inspired you to do so, nor attain any further understanding of the world thereafter.
I've also tried to imagine what on earth you mean by 'ultimate reality'' and it makes no sense. Reality is reality, you can't have ultimate reality, it's either real or not, how can anything be even more real? The most real?
31 Mar 07
Originally posted by StarrmanDiving between a bullet and someone else is an act of greatness? It's altruistic, and not indefensible, and probably could be great as an expression of the extent to which one puts another particular person's interests above one's own, but that's a question of love, not ethics; would you consider it great to take a bullet intended for a stranger?
This is getting silly. You claim that greatness is born of understanding, but you've yet to show how or why. You can perform any number of great acts without understanding them; you haven't even clarified what the understanding consists of, do you mean understanding the act itself, or the factors that give rise to it?
It would be quite possible, for ex ...[text shortened]... te reality, it's either real or not, how can anything be even more real? The most real?
31 Mar 07
Originally posted by StarrmanYou should seriously consider taking a course in art appreciation. I suspect you'll have a leap in understanding that you'll be able apply in any number of areas. It's not that I don't want to explain it to you, but I don't think I'm capable of imparting this to you in a couple of sentences or even a couple of paragraphs. Perhaps someone else on this forum is.
This is getting silly. You claim that greatness is born of understanding, but you've yet to show how or why. You can perform any number of great acts without understanding them; you haven't even clarified what the understanding consists of, do you mean understanding the act itself, or the factors that give rise to it?
It would be quite possible, for ex ...[text shortened]... te reality, it's either real or not, how can anything be even more real? The most real?
31 Mar 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI doubt it, my appreciation of art is pretty well founded, but has little to do with this thread. The more we discuss the less I think you have any real basis for your initial claim.
You should seriously consider taking a course in art appreciation. I suspect you'll have a leap in understanding that you'll be able apply in any number of areas. It's not that I don't want to explain it to you, but I don't think I'm capable of imparting this to you in a couple of sentences or even a couple of paragraphs. Perhaps someone else on this forum is.
31 Mar 07
Originally posted by ChronicLeakyWhy not? I see greatness as exceeding your normal expectations. Really, really great acts are excessions of higher degrees. Jumping in front of a stranger would be a greater act than throwing one's self in front of a known loved one. Either way I think the act of bullet stopping alone is pretty great.
Diving between a bullet and someone else is an act of greatness? It's altruistic, and not indefensible, and probably could be great as an expression of the extent to which one puts another particular person's interests above one's own, but that's a question of love, not ethics; would you consider it great to take a bullet intended for a stranger?
31 Mar 07
1 edit
Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnowThat's not the point. The point is that all great artists have a deep understanding of what it takes to create a masterpiece - something Starman appears to be lacking. I was thinking a course in art appreciation might help him with that.
But certainly not all great artists have taken a course in appreciation.
31 Mar 07
Originally posted by StarrmanIf you really believe that some guy can roll out of bed and produce a masterpiece without having a deep understanding of color, line, texture, composition, shape, space, etc., you have little understanding of art.
I doubt it, my appreciation of art is pretty well founded, but has little to do with this thread. The more we discuss the less I think you have any real basis for your initial claim.
31 Mar 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThat's not what my argument was at all. Perhaps you should go back to the start and refresh yourself. I'm also still waiting for your explanation of how greatness and understanding are intrinsically linked.
If you really believe that some guy can roll out of bed and produce a masterpiece without having a deep understanding of color, line, texture, composition, shape, space, etc., you have little understanding of art.
31 Mar 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI would give up these things and I would say I have given a lot of thought to our debate a while ago and whilst I still would maintain a Christian theology I can see more of what you were saying now about self and pride. I gave you quite a hard time so in the spirit of your thread would you accept an apology?
What are willing to do to achieve this?
Is there anything you wouldn't do?
EDIT:
Perhaps I need to be more specific.
Would you be willing to give up your "self" to achieve this? Or to put it another way, would you be willing to give up your ego, greed, seeking sensory experiences, etc. and live a life based on truth, love, justice, etc. ? If not, why not?
31 Mar 07
Originally posted by StarrmanSee, I think of "great" as meaning "really good" and "good" as being an ethical word. Ethics is rarely a factor in dealing with loved ones, so I think "great" is undefined when talking about taking bullets for them, and I can't think of a reason why preferring a stranger's life to one's own has any positive or negative ethical value, given that a stranger is a person about whom one knows nothing beyond immediate appearances.
Why not? I see greatness as exceeding your normal expectations. Really, really great acts are excessions of higher degrees. Jumping in front of a stranger would be a greater act than throwing one's self in front of a known loved one. Either way I think the act of bullet stopping alone is pretty great.
By your definition, it seems like firing a bullet at a stranger in a context where bullet-firing is unexpected is as great as jumping in front of a bullet, until you elaborate on what you mean by "exceed". I think your elaboration will involve value judgements*, and bring us back to the previous paragraph
*In the context of ThinkOfOne's posts, I'd think of "great" as an aesthetic word, not an ethical one, but I also think the situation is completely analogous.