Originally posted by epiphinehas
Here is another article of findings by the Barna Group which is quite revealing:

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=164
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Jesus taught that Christians would be recognizable by their distinctive behavior, but only a small percentage of those who identified themselves as Christians actually stand out discernib ection of Jesus Christ and the grace extended to people through a relationship with Christ).

Can we have some clarity here, first of all the statement is made that true Christians (if this is true there must therefore be false or nominal ones) are discernible from their actions and then a whole list of tenets of believe is provided, why? what has this to do with behavior? Can someone point this out to me or am i missing something quite important and fundamental.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Can we have some clarity here, first of all the statement is made that true Christians are discernible from their actions and then a whole list of tenets of believe is provided, why? what has this to do with behavior? Can someone point this out to me or am i missing something quite important and fundamental.

What the data seems to show is that a Christian's beliefs affect his or her behavior.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
What the data seems to show is that a Christian's beliefs effect his or her behavior.

yes quite, i understand this, but why does that make them superior?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes quite, i understand this, but why does that make them superior?

I don't know.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I don't know.

mmm, this obviously needs some thought.

One way perhaps is that as one adopts the gift of the sacrificial value of the christs sacrifice, when one does involuntarily commit a transgression, (here i make the distinction between willful and non willful violation), one can petition God, through the Christ for forgiveness, knowing that he is merciful and ready to forgive, thus not only is our own imperfection made manifest, thus when someone transgresses or makes a mistake we are more empathetic and ready to forgive, for we ourselves have done the same, but ultimately our consciousness are cleansed, freeing us from burdening guilt which can run amok with our self esteem, infact the more i think of it, the more amazing it is.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
mmm, this obviously needs some thought.

One way perhaps is that as one adopts the gift of the sacrificial value of the christs sacrifice, when one does involuntarily commit a transgression, (here i make the distinction between willful and non willful violation), one can petition God, through the Christ for forgiveness, knowing that he is mercifu ...[text shortened]... which can run amok with our self esteem, infact the more i think of it, the more amazing it is.

What distinguishes the morally superior Christian from the nominal Christian seems to boil down to a few core issues:

(1) Belief in the Bible's inerrancy
(2) The Great Commission felt as a personal call
(3) A recognition of Christ's perfection (no doubt involving worship of Christ)
(4) Faith is of utmost importance in, and relevant to, everyday life
(5) Belief in salvation through faith, not works

(No particular order)

Originally posted by epiphinehas
What distinguishes the morally superior Christian from the nominal Christian seems to boil down to a few core issues:

(1) Belief in the Bible's inerrancy
(2) The Great Commission felt as a personal call
(3) A recognition of Christ's perfection (no doubt involving worship of Christ)
(4) Faith is of utmost importance in, and relevant to, everyday life
(5) Belief in salvation through faith, not works

(No particular order)

Say a little about #1. I would be interested in how this makes one a morally superior Christian.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
mmm, this obviously needs some thought.

One way perhaps is that as one adopts the gift of the sacrificial value of the christs sacrifice, when one does involuntarily commit a transgression, (here i make the distinction between willful and non willful violation), one can petition God, through the Christ for forgiveness, knowing that he is mercifu ...[text shortened]... which can run amok with our self esteem, infact the more i think of it, the more amazing it is.

I think the problem is a lack of genuine discipleship, coupled with wrong belief.

Right belief leads to being filled with the Holy Spirit, while wrong belief does not allow the Holy Spirit free reign. Since the Holy Spirit is needed in order to live a holy life, right belief is essential. For instance, an individual who is convinced that he must earn his way into heaven will, ironically, be unable to live a holy life, while an individual who is convinced that salvation is by faith and not by works (a right belief) will be able to live a holy life because the Holy Spirit can move where there is right belief, not where there is wrong belief.

Furthermore, belief in the Bible's inerrancy promotes trust in God's word rather than in our own wisdom. Trust in God rather than in ourselves is a biblical principle and a right belief, without which the Holy Spirit cannot be allowed free reign in our lives in order to make us into holy vessels.

Or, perhaps, an individual believes that Jesus Christ was only a man; that He was sinful or imperfect, or in some way not worthy of worship on the same level as God. This also would be a wrong belief. Any "Christian" who fails to recognize Christ for Who He is cannot be filled by the Holy Spirit, and therefore cannot live a holy life.

Right belief is one aspect of the problem (i.e., Christians unable to live holy lives), and I think the other is a serious lack of authentic discipleship. There is a lack of leaders leading by example; not only teaching right belief, but also showing others how to live a Christian life, even going so far as to personally train and equip others.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I think the problem is a lack of genuine discipleship, coupled with wrong belief.

Right belief leads to being filled with the Holy Spirit, while wrong belief does not allow the Holy Spirit free reign. Since the Holy Spirit is needed in order to live a holy life, right belief is essential. For instance, an individual who is convinced that he must ear ...[text shortened]... ers how to live a Christian life, even going so far as to personally train and equip others.

What are your thoughts on Ted Haggard? He seemed to have all the underpinnings of a good faith as you describe them.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Say a little about #1. I would be interested in how this makes one a morally superior Christian.

Belief in the inerrancy of God's word promotes trust in God's word rather than in one's own wisdom. Trust in God rather than oneself is a biblical principle which is blessed by God. Someone predisposed to trust herself rather than God, obviously, cannot be expected to live a holy life in obedience to (and guided by) the Holy Spirit. It is not the belief itself that makes one "morally superior" or "holy", it is the Holy Spirit Who is allowed to make one holy because of right belief.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Belief in the inerrancy of God's word promotes trust in God's word rather than in one's own wisdom. Trust in God rather than oneself is a biblical principle which is blessed by God. Someone predisposed to trust herself rather than God, obviously, cannot be expected to live a holy life in obedience to (and guided by) the Holy Spirit. It is not the beli ...[text shortened]... or "holy", it is the Holy Spirit Who is allowed to make one holy because of right belief.

The problem I'm having with this is that "right belief" doesn't get translated into good behavior. To me, saying inerrrancy makes someone a better Christian is like saying if you paint a room red, you will be warmer.

Originally posted by dystoniac
I agree with your post. Most Christians don't TRULY walk-the-walk or talk-the-talk, and I include myself in this. I think one main reason is that more people a drifting away from God, and it is not chic to be a true Christian, only in name. Narrow are the streets to salvation but wide is the path to destruction, and many eagerly seek the path to destruc ...[text shortened]... g to. Christians, like anybody else, are prone to sin, therefore, we must seek the Lord daily.

Unfortunately there are many more who talk-the talk than walk-the-walk. I'm guessing this accounts for a large share of the hypocrisy noted by FMF.

Originally posted by kirksey957
The problem I'm having with this is that "right belief" doesn't get translated into good behavior. To me, saying inerrrancy makes someone a better Christian is like saying if you paint a room red, you will be warmer.

Regardless, right belief seems to have a profound affect on behavior, according to the data. My explanation for this is that the Holy Spirit is quenched where there is wrong belief, and is allowed to work where there is right belief, generally speaking. Otherwise I agree that right belief doesn't necessarily translate into good behavior, only that it makes the "inworking" of the Holy Spirit more probable.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Regardless, right belief seems to have a profound affect on behavior, according to the data. My explanation for this is that the Holy Spirit is quenched where there is wrong belief, and is allowed to work where there is right belief, generally speaking. Otherwise I agree that right belief doesn't necessarily translate into good behavior, only that it makes the "inworking" of the Holy Spirit more probable.

What are your thoughts on Visteds? I imagine his belief system is one of the most horrible on the site. Is he a bad person?

Originally posted by kirksey957
What are your thoughts on Visteds? I imagine his belief system is one of the most horrible on the site. Is he a bad person?

I accede to your point, that right belief doesn't necessarily translate into good behavior. The problem is, I'm addressing polling data which involves thousands of people, and you are presenting individual cases. Undoubtedly vistesd may be morally superior to some right-thinking Christian out there, and I think the data allows for that. But we can't draw conclusions based on a few isolated cases.