17 Oct 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobiei don't know of anyone born of a virgin. but there is also no claims that anyone will be born of a virgin in the hebrew texts. so stop talking nonsense.
how many people do you know are born of a virgin, anyone,? how many persons do
you know born of the Davidic line, anyone? no, well stop talking nonsense.
17 Oct 12
1 edit
so we still have all these unfulfilled messianic prophecies. robbie made a pathetic attempt to excuse the failure of his messiah but he proved to be no more successful than his false messiah.
-all the people of the world live in peace without intolerance
fail
-there won't be any predatory beasts anymore
fail
-all the hebrews tirbes will return from diaspora and dwell in the reconstituted kingdoms of israel and judea
fail
-all the nations of the world will recognize the hebrew god
fail
-human crimes and sin will end
fail
-he will rebuild the final temple that will stand forever
fail
-he will defeat the kingdom of assyria
fail even before the arrival of jesus
17 Oct 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritanother epic fail of gargantuan proportions,
i don't know of anyone born of a virgin. but there is also no claims that anyone will be born of a virgin in the hebrew texts. so stop talking nonsense.
(Isaiah 7:14) . . .Therefore Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The
maiden* herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and
she will certainly call his name Immanuel.
One would think that the mere fact that a maiden (virgin) should give birth as a sign
should have been enough, but no, let us consider the text,
*“The maiden (young woman).” Hebrew, haalmah; Septuagint translated from the
original Hebrew, Greek term, parthenos, noun, feminine literally a virgin, Syriac
text, bethultha, literally, “the virgin”; Latin, virgo, “virgin.” See also Genesis 24:16
now after studying the underlying text and its subsequent translations, we can
readily discern that the term the maiden refers, as Strong puts it; parthenos,
definition, a maiden, a virgin; and compare that to viodspirits ludicrous and frankly
ignorant assertion, 'there is also no claims that anyone will be born of a virgin in the
Hebrew texts', a nonsense, clearly the first century Hebrew christians who translated
the original text into Greek in the Septuagint understood the term to mean a virgin.
One can only wonder what authority viodspirit has for asserting otherwise, other
than a deep prejudice and an unwillingness to recognise incontrovertible facts.
17 Oct 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIsn't 'betulah' the Hebrew word for 'young female virgin'?
another epic fail of gargantuan proportions,
(Isaiah 7:14) . . .Therefore Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The
maiden* herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and
she will certainly call his name Immanuel.
One would think that the mere fact that a maiden (virgin) should give birth as a sign ...[text shortened]... rwise, other
than a deep prejudice and an unwillingness to recognise incontrovertible facts.
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17 Oct 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieits hardly a 'fact'. everybody seems to agree that the word means 'young girl', 'girl of marriageable age' or 'young woman at the age of puberty' and the word 'bethultha' means virgin.
another epic fail of gargantuan proportions,
(Isaiah 7:14) . . .Therefore Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The
maiden* herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and
she will certainly call his name Immanuel.
One would think that the mere fact that a maiden (virgin) should give birth as a sign ...[text shortened]... rwise, other
than a deep prejudice and an unwillingness to recognise incontrovertible facts.
firstly i would criticize god for not making sure his words were not captured in a more accurate manner. it would see absurd that something so important could so quickly be misunderstood and aid in the process of millions of people ending up following the wrong religion. if he meant virgin then he should have specified it, rather than leaving it open to interpretation.
i would then say anybody who believes their interpretation is 100% correct it not really looking at the situation logically, it is impossible to unravel the truth, for every christian scholar saying 'it means 'x' and here are some examples of why' there are a bunch of jews saying 'it means 'y' and here are some examples of why'.
anybody with a brain would conclude its impossible to know the truth and therefore should keep an open mind.
17 Oct 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritsome outstanding messianic prophecy's,
so we still have all these unfulfilled messianic prophecies. robbie made a pathetic attempt to excuse the failure of his messiah but he proved to be no more successful than his false messiah.
-all the people of the world live in peace without intolerance
fail
-there won't be any predatory beasts anymore
fail
-all the hebrews tirbes will ret ...[text shortened]... orever
fail
-he will defeat the kingdom of assyria
fail even before the arrival of jesus
1. Born of the tribe of Judah, Ge 49:10, fulfilment Mt 1:2-16; Lu 3:23-33; Heb 7:14
2. From the family of David, son of Jesse, Ps 132:11; fulfilment, Mt 1:1, 6-16;
3. Born in Bethlehem, Mic 5:2, fulfilment, Lu 2:4-11; Joh 7:42
4. Born of a virgin, Isa 7:14, fulfilment, Mt 1:18-23; Lu 1:30-35
5. Babies killed after his birth, Jer 31:15, fulfilment, Mt 2:16-18
6. Called out of Egypt, Ho 11:1, fulfilment, Mt 2:15
7. Way prepared before him, Mal 3:1, fulfilment, Mt 3:1-3; 11:10-14;
8. Commissioned by God, Isa 61:1, 2, fulfilment, Lu 4:18-21,
9. Ministry caused people to see a 'great light', Isa 9:1, 2, fulfilment, Mt 4:13-16
10. Spoke in illustrations, Ps 78:2, fulfilment, Mt 13:11-13, 31-35
11. Carried our sicknesses, Isa 53:4, fulfilment, Mt 8:16, 17
12. Zealous for Jehovah's house, Ps 69:9, fulfilment, Mt 21:12, 13; Joh 2:13-17
13. Not believed in, Isa 53:1, fulfilment, Joh 12:37, 38; Ro 10:11, 16
14. entry into Jerusalem on a colt of an ass, hailed as King in Jehovahs name, Ps 118:26, fulfilment, Lu 19:28-38
15. Rejected but becomes the chief cornerstone, Isa 28:16, fulfilment, Mt 21:42, 45, 46; Ac 3:14;
16. becomes a stone of stumbling, Isa 8:14, 15, fulfilment, Lu 20:17, 18; Ro 9:31-33
17. betrayed by unfaithful apostle, Ps 41:9, fulfilment, Mt 26:47-50
18. betrayed for thirty pieces of silver, Zec 11:12, fulfilment, Mt 26:15; 27:3-10
19. disciples are scattered, Zec 13:7, fulfilment, Mt 26:31, 56; Joh 16:32
20. Romans and Jews conspire to act against, Ps 2:1, 2, fulfilment, Mt 27:1, 2;
21. Tried and condemned, Isa 53:8, fulfilment Mt 26:57-68
22. Use of false witnesses, Ps 27:12, fulfilment, Mt 26:59-61; Mr 14:56-59
23. Silent before accusers, Isa 53:7, fulfilment, Mt 27:12-14
24. Hated without cause, Ps 69:4, fulfilment, Lu 23:13-25
25. Struck, spat upon, Isa 50:6, fulfilment, Mt 26:67
26. Lots cast for garments, Ps 22:18, fulfilment, Mt 27:35
27. Numbered with sinners, Isa 53:12, fulfilment, Mt 26:55, 56
28. Reviled while dying, Ps 22:7, 8, fulfilment, Mt 27:39-43
29. Given vinegar and gall, Ps 69:21, fulfilment Mt 27:34
30. Forsaken by God to enemies, Ps 22:1, fulfilment Mt 27:46
31. No bones broken, Ps 34:20, fulfilment, Joh 19:33, 36
32. Pierced, Isa 53:5, fulfilment, Mt 27:49
33. sacrificial death carries sins, opens way for righteous, Isa 53:5, fulfilment, Mt 20:28; Joh 1:29
34. Buried with the rich, Isa 53:9, fulfilment, Mt 27:57-60
35. In grave three days then resurrected, Jon 1:17, fulfilment, Mt 12:39, 40
36. Raised before corruption, Ps 16:8-11, fulfilment, Ac 2:25-31
37. Declared by God as son, Ps 2:7, fulfilment , Mt 3:16, 17
all prophecies fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.
17 Oct 12
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfieyou would criticise God because??? you are more experienced, more intelligent, better
its hardly a 'fact'. everybody seems to agree that the word means 'young girl', 'girl of marriageable age' or 'young woman at the age of puberty' and the word 'bethultha' means virgin.
firstly i would criticize god for not making sure his words were not captured in a more accurate manner. it would see absurd that something so important could so quic clude its impossible to know the truth and therefore should keep an open mind.
qualified or just being a pedantic knit picker? there is nothing to misunderstand, the
term means virgin, anyone with a slither of discernment can see from the immediate
context that it was given as a sign, an ordinary birth by natural means is not a sign, is
it? Duh! Thus once again your unreasonable and frankly silly assertions are invalidated
by simple reason, dear oh dear such arguments are the weakest ever, its the usual,
because I say so it must be true. Solution, feel bum and be brought back to reality 😛
17 Oct 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Proper KnobYes, although the Hebrew word bethulah means “virgin,” another term (almah)
Isn't 'betulah' the Hebrew word for 'young female virgin'?
appears at Isaiah 7:14: “Look! The maiden [ha'almah] herself will actually become
pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name
Immanuel.” The word 'almah means “maiden” and can apply to a nonvirgin or a
virgin. It is applied to “the maiden” Rebekah before marriage when she was also
called “a virgin” (bethulah). (Ge 24:16, 43) Under divine inspiration, Matthew
employed the Greek word parthenos (virgin) when showing that Isaiah 7:14 found
final fulfilment in connection with the virgin birth of Jesus, the Messiah. Both Matthew
and Luke state clearly that Jesus mother Mary was then a virgin who became
pregnant through the operation of God’s holy spirit. Mt 1:18-25; Lu 1:26-35.
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17 Oct 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieits hardly 'pedantic, knit picking' if millions of jews follow a religion that believes the word means 'young maiden'.
you would criticise God because??? you are more experienced, more intelligent, better
qualified or just being a pedantic knit picker? there is nothing to misunderstand, the
term means virgin, anyone with a slither of discernment can see from the immediate
context that it was given as a sign, an ordinary birth by natural means is not a sign, is ...[text shortened]... oh dear such arguments are the weakest ever, its the usual,
because I say so it must be true.
anyone with a slither of discernment can see from the immediate
context that it was given as a sign
so what does that say about your respect for all the jewish scholars through time that disagree? if anybody can see its true meaning it indicates you think the millions of jews who disagree with you are pretty stupid.
id also point out that these christian scholars who made the translation are the same christian scholars that you and your fellow j.w's constantly discredit, claiming they have misunderstood multiple passages of the bible.
you are lost deep in your religion robbie, youve lost all sense of perspective. it seems to an outsider the words you write feel like your number one loyalty is to your church rather than your god. i guess the same could be said to anybody who believes what their church says 100% without question.
17 Oct 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieyes it does and so they are and who cares what scholars think, i have given reasons
its hardly 'pedantic, knit picking' if millions of jews follow a religion that believes the word means 'young maiden'.
[b]anyone with a slither of discernment can see from the immediate
context that it was given as a sign
so what does that say about your respect for all the jewish scholars through time that disagree? if anybody can see its ...[text shortened]... he same could be said to anybody who believes what their church says 100% without question.[/b]
which you seem unable to address with anything other than vain appeals to popular
opinion, the rest of your text is the usual irrelevant ad hominem extraordinaire fest,
unworthy of serious comment.
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17 Oct 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobiewho cares what scholars think
yes it does and so they are and who cares what scholars think, i have given reasons
which you seem unable to address with anything other than vain appeals to popular
opinion, the rest of your text is the usual irrelevant ad hominem extraordinaire fest,
unworthy of serious comment.
you do. ive seen you debate the wisdom of j'w scholars over christian scholars and now the wisdom of christian scholars over jewish scholars. its funny how intelligence in your view of the world is related to the religious group you follow rather than the individual.
im confused as to why you think i havent addressed the issue. did you want me to argue the meaning of the word with you???? my point is that both religious groups could supply reasons why they have chosen the translation they have. you might think one translation is better than the other but as the both could be applied there is no clear reason to decided to follow one rather than the other 100%. its guess work at best. to me this shows that you are willing to believe in something 100% even if you only have a 50% reason to do so. which makes anything you say redundant as you are not able to debate in an analytic way.
youre trapped in a j.w. snow globe of single-mindedness, blinded by the little flakes of loyalty to your cause.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo the Hebrew term for virgin is bethuwlah, which occurs 50 times in the OT, yet it doesn't appear at Isaiah 7:14?
Yes, although the Hebrew word bethulah means “virgin,” another term (almah)
appears at Isaiah 7:14: “Look! The maiden [ha'almah] herself will actually become
pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name
Immanuel.” The word 'almah means “maiden” and can apply to a nonvirgin or a
virgin. It is applied to “the ...[text shortened]... rgin who became
pregnant through the operation of God’s holy spirit. Mt 1:18-25; Lu 1:26-35.
17 Oct 12
2 edits
Originally posted by stellspalfieno i made reference to the actual verse, if it was intended to be a sign or portent, then
[b]who cares what scholars think
you do. ive seen you debate the wisdom of j'w scholars over christian scholars and now the wisdom of christian scholars over jewish scholars. its funny how intelligence in your view of the world is related to the religious group you follow rather than the individual.
im confused as to why you think i havent ...[text shortened]... a j.w. snow globe of single-mindedness, blinded by the little flakes of loyalty to your cause.[/b]
of necessity the maiden must be considered to be a virgin otherwise no notable sign
would have taken place, this is not only reasonable, but logical, pure logic in fact, you
will now state why you do not think it to be the case, otherwise you have not made any
attempt to address the issue other than to appeal to so called scholars, none of
which you have named nor the claims they have made. Your introduction of Jehovahs
witnesses is illogical and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
17 Oct 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Proper Knobthat is what i have written, is it not, what trouble are you having understanding the
So the Hebrew term for virgin is bethuwlah, which occurs 50 times in the OT, yet it doesn't appear at Isaiah 7:14?
fact? The translation of the verse into Greek by Matthew, a Hebrew, clearly
demonstrates that it is understood to be made with reference to a virgin, that is why he
used the Greek term for a virgin, but sure, you can ignore all of that , it will not negate
the facts.