lucifer (light- bringer)

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
You really don't need to go to such bizarre and unrealistic mind masturbation to see the thing for what it is.
All that is required is to think on this simple thought experiment:

1. "Are you going to respond to this post?"
2. If you are inclined to, don't.
3. If you are not inclined to, do.

The results of 2. or 3. prove your free will or lack thereof.
If you are a normal human being with control of your faculties, you will make a choice.

Evidence of decision making is not evidence of libertarian free will.

Google driverless cars make decisions constantly, and yet those decisions are
being made by entirely deterministic computer programs.

They weigh up the options and choose from them which is the best current course
of action.

Now the human brain is a different kind of thinking machine from a silicone based
binary computer. But it is simply a highly complex arrangement of matter and energy,
that operates entirely by the known laws of physics.

The fact that I make decisions, and that you make decisions, does not in any way mean
that those decisions were free, in the libertarian sense.


And you still haven't answered my simple questions, which if you are correct should be
really easy.

.... The truth is that I don't know how I chose these words, they just popped up into
my conciousness. Just as your words popped into your conciousness when you
composed your response.


Think of a capitol city.

Now tell me why the first city to pop into your head was the first to come to mind, and
not any of the other possible capital cities you know.

Explain how it was that you chose that city to be the first to come to mind.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Calvin had to be one of the worst things to happen to Christianity, in my opinion.

Yet you believe in sin, and that unless I [or anyone else] repent of our 'sins' we
must be, and will deserve to be, killed/tortured by your god.


The possibility that we could be good and decent and deserving of not being killed
without your religion 'saving' us is not available in your religion.

So that post stands.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I don't know what you've been smoking, but your ignorance is shocking for someone who has knowledge. Your problem is that you lack wisdom.

I also don't use long, impressive-sounding words to describe others' ideas.

That you can actually sit here and claim that free will does not exist is amazing to me. But, I guess you need an excuse. I don't know ...[text shortened]... , but I make my own choices every single day. Including following God. Clearly, you are wrong.

As I say above. Making decisions doesn't mean that you are making those decisions freely.

Also, excuse for what??

I need no excuses as far as your religion is concerned.


EDIT: BTW, I'm going to be absent for a week, so my not responding for a while is because
I'm not going to be here, not because I'm ignoring your responses.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Evidence of decision making is not evidence of libertarian free will.

Google driverless cars make decisions constantly, and yet those decisions are
being made by entirely deterministic computer programs.

They weigh up the options and choose from them which is the best current course
of action.

Now the human brain is a different kind of think ...[text shortened]... now.

Explain how it was that you chose that city to be the first to come to mind.[/quote][/b]

Your analogy of driverless cars has already been shredded by KellyJay, so I won't go back over the points he's already made.

And you still haven't answered my simple questions, which if you are correct should be really easy.
To show you how free choice works, I am declining to tell you the name of a capitol city.

Get it?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Your analogy of driverless cars has already been shredded by KellyJay, so I won't go back over the points he's already made.

[b]And you still haven't answered my simple questions, which if you are correct should be really easy.
To show you how free choice works, I am declining to tell you the name of a capitol city.

Get it?[/b]

Kelly, like you, is very confused.

Responding to an argument, or objecting to an argument, is not even remotely
the same as shredding it.


Kelly completely failed to deal with my argument, and suffers from the same
confusion, without the hostility, that you do.


Let me say this again. Being able to MAKE decisions is not any kind of indication
that you are free in the decisions/choices that you make.

The POINT of the driverless car, is that it is a clear example of decisions being
made by something that unambiguously does not have libertarian free will.

Proving that the ability to make decisions does not prove the presence of
libertarian free will.


So your 'demonstration' of free will is nothing of the sort.

You have the ability to make decisions. Great, good for you.

That doesn't prove you have free will.



Get it?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Your analogy of driverless cars has already been shredded by KellyJay, so I won't go back over the points he's already made.

[b]And you still haven't answered my simple questions, which if you are correct should be really easy.
To show you how free choice works, I am declining to tell you the name of a capitol city.

Get it?[/b]

Also... I think you need to re-read what I asked...
I never asked you to give me the name of a capital city.
I asked you to think of one.

Think of a capitol city.

Now tell me why the first city to pop into your head was the first to come to mind, and
not any of the other possible capital cities you know.

Explain how it was that you chose that city to be the first to come to mind.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Kelly, like you, is very confused.

Responding to an argument, or objecting to an argument, is not even remotely
the same as shredding it.


Kelly completely failed to deal with my argument, and suffers from the same
confusion, without the hostility, that you do.


Let me say this again. Being able to MAKE decisions is not any kind of indicat ...[text shortened]... to make decisions. Great, good for you.

That doesn't prove you have free will.



Get it?

It looks like you don't understand what it means to make a decision.
As has been pointed out in KJ's response to you (you know, the one that shredded your argument), the computer which directs the car is not deciding.
It is following a hardwired program--- full of 'if this, then that' formulas.
While this might appear to you to be actual decisions, there is no thought process involved, no morality-based valuations occurring, really nothing like an actual mind-based decision other than in the most superficial appearances.

And the hostility is aimed at your intransigence toward having actual conversations without resorting to the usual name-calling and insults.
Act like an adult, and you will be treated as such; continue acting like a petulant child, and you will be treated in accord.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Also... I think you need to re-read what I asked...
I never asked you to give me the name of a capital city.
I asked you to think of one.

[b]Think of a capitol city.

Now tell me why the first city to pop into your head was the first to come to mind, and
not any of the other possible capital cities you know.

Explain how it was that you chose that city to be the first to come to mind.[/b]

Point taken.
I will not think of a capitol city.
Thus spoke my free will.

Better?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Point taken.
I will not think of a capitol city.
Thus spoke my free will.

Better?

Nope.

And I have to go.

So I will leave you with this.

Your childish refusal to actually deal with my question makes it look
like you know you cannot actually meet my challenge, and are to cowardly
to admit it.

And I am an adult, treating me otherwise simply makes you look stupid.

Have a good week.

I will look forward to reading LJ kick your ass... again, and again...

Originally posted by googlefudge
Nope.

And I have to go.

So I will leave you with this.

Your childish refusal to actually deal with my question makes it look
like you know you cannot actually meet my challenge, and are to cowardly
to admit it.

And I am an adult, treating me otherwise simply makes you look stupid.

Have a good week.

I will look forward to reading LJ kick your ass... again, and again...

Sweet dreams, lamb chop.

Originally posted by redbarons
the war in heaven is it still on

Actually the war is over, it's just the battles that linger.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
The end has already been written, you should read about it. Good triumphs in the end.

That's just what they WANT you to think.

Originally posted by whodey
Actually the war is over, it's just the battles that linger.

"Actually", the war is no longer in heaven, but on earth.

And mankind is failing badly.

Originally posted by sonhouse
That's just what they WANT you to think.

"They"??

Oh, oh, right... "they"...





"They talk a lot, don't they?"

Originally posted by googlefudge
And I am an adult, treating me otherwise simply makes you look stupid.

Exactly what does "I am an adult" mean to you?

That you might have... (wait for it)... free will?