Jesus was taking to a specific group of people, the Pharisees.
The prophecy he quoted was about a certain city in Israel. Note that Jesus did not merely state that "you Pharisees are acting like this verse in Isaiah", but much more strongly, "Isaiah was prophesying about specifically you people".
He took a "smite" aimed at another group of people from another century and applied it directly to a fresh group of people without bothering to justify it.
No wonder his followers commonly have done the same ever since.
That's the cool thing about Biblical smites. They can apply to anyone you don't like. Disagreements need not be merely personal. You may enlist the saints and prophets and invoke their authority against your opponent.
@bigdoggproblem saidHe took a "smite" aimed at another group of people from another century and applied it directly to a fresh group of people without bothering to justify it.
Jesus was taking to a specific group of people, the Pharisees.
The prophecy he quoted was about a certain city in Israel. Note that Jesus did not merely state that "you Pharisees are acting like this verse in Isaiah", but much more strongly, "Isaiah was prophesying about specifically you people".
He took a "smite" aimed at another group of people from another cen ...[text shortened]... y personal. You may enlist the saints and prophets and invoke their authority against your opponent.
Actually Jesus did justify it. In Matthew 15 and elsewhere.
That's the cool thing about Biblical smites. They can apply to anyone you don't like. Disagreements need not be merely personal. You may enlist the saints and prophets and invoke their authority against your opponent.
How does "mouth worshippers" not fit By-Faith-Alone-Christians? How do the words of Isaiah not apply to them?
05 Jul 19
@thinkofone saidI don't think there are many Christians that live by faith alone.....they desire to do good works as well.
He took a "smite" aimed at another group of people from another century and applied it directly to a fresh group of people without bothering to justify it.
Actually Jesus did justify it. In Matthew 15 and elsewhere.
[b]That's the cool thing about Biblical smites. They can apply to anyone you don't like. Disagreements need not be merely personal. You may enlist ...[text shortened]... "mouth worshippers" not fit By-Faith-Alone-Christians? How do the words of Isaiah not apply to them?
Both yourself and Rajk seem to have a problem with any Christian stating that "belief" in God is a requirement, and leap to the gigantic conclusion that it's mere mouth worship.
The REAL thread you should have started is this: Belief in God is not necessary, just good works.
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05 Jul 19
@thinkofone saidJehovah is said to have said what you quote, do you believe that Jehovah is God and that he sent Jesus the messiah to earth?
Matthew 15
7“You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
9‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”
05 Jul 19
@chaney3 saidDo you really not understand the issue?
I don't think there are many Christians that live by faith alone.....they desire to do good works as well.
Both yourself and Rajk seem to have a problem with any Christian stating that "belief" in God is a requirement, and leap to the gigantic conclusion that it's mere mouth worship.
The REAL thread you should have started is this: Belief in God is not necessary, just good works.
Many Christians believe that it is by "faith alone" that they will receive salvation, receive eternal life and inherit the kingdom of God. That nothing else is required.
From what I gather, Rajk999's position is that "good works" are required to receive eternal life and inherit the kingdom of God.
05 Jul 19
@thinkofone saidCan you name any here that believes that and can give the quotes you use to draw that conclusion! Faith by grace gives us the right to become the children of God, it puts us in good standing with God, it is our walking the narrow way, laying down our lives, abiding in Christ, picking up our cross and following Him daily, overcoming through the blood of the Lamb that is in play. If you think it is a once saved always saved because someone mouthed a prayer, find someone who preaches that, otherwise you and Rajk999 are simply blowing smoke because neither of you trust Jesus for your salvation you think it must be earned before you can stand before God justified.
Do you really not understand the issue?
Many Christians believe that it is by "faith alone" that they will receive salvation, receive eternal life and inherit the kingdom of God. That nothing else is required.
From what I gather, Rajk999's position is that "good works" are required to receive eternal life and inherit the kingdom of God.
@kellyjay saidI explained what many Christians believe and to what Rajk999 seems to take exception. I neglected to add that Rajk999 believes that Jesus will judge. If you agree with Rajk999, then I don't understand why you're always arguing with him about it.
Can you name any here that believes that and can give the quotes you use to draw that conclusion! Faith by grace gives us the right to become the children of God, it puts us in good standing with God, it is our walking the narrow way, laying down our lives, abiding in Christ, picking up our cross and following Him daily, overcoming through the blood of the Lamb that is in pl ...[text shortened]... rust Jesus for your salvation you think it must be earned before you can stand before God justified.
As for me, pretty much since I started posting on this forum I've been advocating for the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth. Following is what I posted back in 2015. It's what I've said in various ways many a time before and after:
I just posted this another thread, but it seems appropriate to post it here as well:
While Jesus walked the Earth:
Jesus taught what is and is not righteous.
Jesus taught what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom"
Jesus taught that ultimately what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom" is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", from a "bad tree" to a "good tree". A "son" no longer commits sin, one "born of the spirit" no longer commits sin, a "good tree" no longer commits sin. In short, one must become one with God as He was one with God. One must become a son of God as he was a son of God.
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/salvation.165585/page-17
If you agree with the above, then I don't understand why you're always arguing with me about it.
05 Jul 19
@thinkofone saidIf a person is to become "one" with God, wouldn't you think believing He exists is sort of important??
I explained what many Christians believe and to what Rajk999 seems to take exception. If you agree with Rajk999, then I don't understand why you're always arguing with him about it.
As for me, pretty much since I started posting on this forum I've been advocating for the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth. Following is what I posted back in 2015. It's wh ...[text shortened]... as a son of God.
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/salvation.165585/page-17
[/quote]
You appear to act hostile toward this line of reasoning.
@chaney3 saidReread the following:
If a person is to become "one" with God, wouldn't you think believing He exists is sort of important??
You appear to act hostile toward this line of reasoning.
Jesus taught that ultimately what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom" is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", from a "bad tree" to a "good tree". A "son" no longer commits sin, one "born of the spirit" no longer commits sin, a "good tree" no longer commits sin. In short, one must become one with God as He was one with God. One must become a son of God as he was a son of God.
Pay particular attention to the part in BOLD. That's what's "important'.
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05 Jul 19
@chaney3 saidThinkofone doesn't believe God exists or that Jesus was sent by him. He is in fact what his OP describes.
If a person is to become "one" with God, wouldn't you think believing He exists is sort of important??
You appear to act hostile toward this line of reasoning.
Ironic don’t you think.
05 Jul 19
@thinkofone saidActually, very few here believe this, but Rajk continues beating this drum to appear relevant.
Do you really not understand the issue?
Many Christians believe that it is by "faith alone" that they will receive salvation, receive eternal life and inherit the kingdom of God. That nothing else is required.
From what I gather, Rajk999's position is that "good works" are required to receive eternal life and inherit the kingdom of God.
@suzianne saidThat's an interesting perspective.
Actually, very few here believe this, but Rajk continues beating this drum to appear relevant.
There seem to have been quite a few people over the years who have argued with Rajk999 when he's pointed out that "good works" are required to receive eternal life and inherit the kingdom of God and that Jesus will judge.
06 Jul 19
@thinkofone saidThe argument only occurs when faith and belief are brought up as a necessity ALONG with good works.
That's an interesting perspective.
There seem to have been quite a few people over the years who have argued with Rajk999 when he's pointed out that "good works" are required to receive eternal life and inherit the kingdom of God and that Jesus will judge.
Rajk excludes faith and belief as unnecessary church doctrine, which is likely wrong.
06 Jul 19
@divegeester saidAgreed.
Thinkofone doesn't believe God exists or that Jesus was sent by him. He is in fact what his OP describes.
Ironic don’t you think.
What I cannot figure out is why he pushes the teachings of Jesus (while He walked the earth), yet claims that believing Jesus even existed is unnecessary.