Is Jesus God? – Logical questions that need answers Part 1

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I lean to what the bible says, there is no remembrance in death, no conscience, nothing, until Jesus returns and raises us up.
Jesus died and I know that he descended to the lower parts of the earth and I believe he claimed victory to the demonic host who are in chains. I think they shuddered.
Then he appeared in the garden to the woman, etc.

I lean to what the bible says, there is no remembrance in death, no conscience, nothing, until Jesus returns and raises us up.

Psalm 6:5 does say "For in death there is no remembrance of You: In Sheol who can give thanks to You?"

However in light of other passages in the Bible I have to take this passage in different way then you. The previous verses says this "Return, O Jehovah; deliver my soul; Save me for Your lovingkindness sake. For death there is no rememberance ... etc."

The Psalmist is asking God to save him from death. Clearly, if he DIES he is removed from the earth. In the sense of those left ALIVE on the earth, there is no longer any praising of God from him. He is gone. His praising and thanking God from the standpoint of being alive on the earth is TERMINATED.

In the realm of death, in Sheol, no words, no praise, no thanksgiving and for that matter no complaining or cursing or arguing has any possible effect on those still living. "In Sheol who can give thanks to You?"

The words of no one in Sheol either of praise or otherwise can reach those alive upon the earth.

This would make Luke 16:19-31 make sense and believable just as much. The two deceased people, Lazarus and the rich man, could not be heard upon the earth by anyone living. That is apart from special revelation which Jesus Christ granted us.

If Lazarus praised or thanked God in the bosom of Abraham, surely his words were not heard on the earth. And whatever the rich man said was not heard either on earth. To that fact he was concerned, that he could not warn his five brothers to avoid going to the same place where he now found himself.

In this way " ... in death there is no remembrance of You; In Sheol who can give thanks to You?"

But death is not non-existence. Otherwise Jesus would be teaching a falsehood by teaching us of the fate of the rich man and of Lazarus after they died. And other portions of the Bible we would have to reject as well.

Jesus died and I know that he descended to the lower parts of the earth and I believe he claimed victory to the demonic host who are in chains. I think they shuddered.
Then he appeared in the garden to the woman, etc.

Jesus was active in the realm of death. So He was not non-existent. And to those to whom He proclaimed anything either good or bad, they too were not non-existent.

You see ?

Originally posted by sonship

I lean to what the bible says, there is no remembrance in death, no conscience, nothing, until Jesus returns and raises us up.

Psalm 6:5 does say [b]"For in death there is no remembrance of You: In Sheol who can give thanks to You?"

However in light of other passages in the Bible I have to take this passage in different way t He proclaimed anything either good or bad, they too were not non-existent.

You see ?[/b]

Yes, I will leave this in abeyance since it is a clear possibility. I see where you are coming from, but it is a possible rendition, not certain. I still lean to dead is dead because Christians in death are not praising him either.
The praise is to God not those on earth who are alive.
Luke 16 is not meant to be taken literal, but to make a point about believing the Word, while you are still alive.

oops, just got company , back later..

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
interesting is your use of extra biblical phrases (godhead) which you need to utilise in order to explain your extra biblical dogma, but thats the trinity for you.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

(Colossians 2:9 KJV)

YouTube

The Instructor

Yes, I will leave this in abeyance since it is a clear possibility. I see where you are coming from, but it is a possible rendition, not certain. I still lean to dead is dead because Christians in death are not praising him either.

But you wouldn't know if they were praising, apart from special revelation.

In Revelation the souls underneath the altar in the fifth seal are making petition to God. And they are asleep. They have died.

"And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had. (v.9)

And they cried with a loud voice saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? (v.10)

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also [the number] of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed." (v.11)

1.) They had been slain.
2.) They are clearly dead.
3.) They are resting and told to rest yet longer.
4.) They are crying out to God the Master for the avenging of their martyrdom.
5.) They are expecting others to be slain to death as they were.

Underneath the altar, many believe, signifies underneath the earth.
Apart from special unveiling by Christ we would know nothing of what these dead servants of God, Christian brothers, would be saying or doing. To our sensation they are completely gone in silence.

In actuality God shows us that they are not non-existent. This would be consistent with us being told that the region of the dead, though covered to us, is not covered to God.

Job 26:6 - Sheol is naked before HIm, And Abaddon has no covering."

But Sheol has a covering to us who are alive. So of course we see nothing and hear nothing of what is being said or done there.

Proverbs 15:11 - Sheol and Abaddon [lie open] before Jehovah. How much more the hearts of the children of men! "

The praise is to God not those on earth who are alive.
Luke 16 is not meant to be taken literal, but to make a point about believing the Word, while you are still alive.

I don't think it can successfully MAKE that point if the details are not to be taken as factual.

Saying that the details did in fact not happen takes completely away the force of the teaching. Who then will take it seriously if one's state beyond this life could not be like that of the negligent rich man.

The warning is wrapped up in the details. And the details are to be taken seriously as a certain possibility.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
How does that make him God?

You said He was not really dead. Here He says He was dead. Does that make Him a liar to you?

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
You said He was not really dead. Here He says He was dead. Does that make Him a liar to you?

The Instructor

No he is not a liar and yes he was dead. Again how does this make him God?

Originally posted by sonship

Yes, I will leave this in abeyance since it is a clear possibility. I see where you are coming from, but it is a possible rendition, not certain. I still lean to dead is dead because Christians in death are not praising him either.

But you wouldn't know if they were praising, apart from special revelation.

In Revelation the souls un ...[text shortened]... ed up in the details. And the details are to be taken seriously as a certain possibility.

Thank you Sonship, I will take this into consideration. I am not well versed in the book of Revelation, never have spent much time there, even though I have read it. It is a tough book to understand and there are tons of figures of speech and metaphors which I do not understand.
I have always took the side of the dead are dead and will continue to do so, until I can be convinced by God's Word to the contrary.
I have exposed Spiritualism and Seances with the argument that the dead are dead and cannot possibly be a loved one.
Demons can mimic our loved ones and take advantage of this type of teaching.
Not that this surpasses the Word of God, but like I said, I still hold to the dead are dead. I believe this is what the bible teaches, and I will look into the verses you mention and get a better understanding.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Thank you Sonship, I will take this into consideration. I am not well versed in the book of Revelation, never have spent much time there, even though I have read it. It is a tough book to understand and there are tons of figures of speech and metaphors which I do not understand.
I have always took the side of the dead are dead and will continue to do so ...[text shortened]... the bible teaches, and I will look into the verses you mention and get a better understanding.

Wow my friend. You absolutly need to know all you can about Revelation as it is more important today then ever. So much of it is happening now and in the very near future. You life is at stake if you aren't aware of what is happening in connection with that book.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
No he is not a liar and yes he was dead. Again how does this make him God?

I was not trying to prove He was God here. I was only trying to prove that He claimed to be dead and was now alive. If you claim He was not dead then one of you are lying.

The Instructor

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Thank you Sonship, I will take this into consideration. I am not well versed in the book of Revelation, never have spent much time there, even though I have read it. It is a tough book to understand and there are tons of figures of speech and metaphors which I do not understand.
I have always took the side of the dead are dead and will continue to do so ...[text shortened]... the bible teaches, and I will look into the verses you mention and get a better understanding.

While I myself would like to think that the dead are dead and that's that, unfortunately the Bible does not really teach it so simply. Saul was able to get the Witch of Endor to recall the soul of Samuel who was dead. Plus the story told by Christ which you think is not literal might just be literal because there is no need for Christ to go into that great detail of a story just to say that to do good while you are alive.

There is no requirement for anyone to fully understand all the logistics of death or hell or soul or afterlife. And anyone who thinks they fully understand what happens after we die are just fooling themselves.

Originally posted by Rajk999
While I myself would like to think that the dead are dead and that's that, unfortunately the Bible does not really teach it so simply. Saul was able to get the Witch of Endor to recall the soul of Samuel who was dead. Plus the story told by Christ which you think is not literal might just be literal because there is no need for Christ to go into that great d ...[text shortened]... anyone who thinks they fully understand what happens after we die are just fooling themselves.

"And anyone who thinks they fully understand what happens after we die are just fooling themselves."

If not "fully", how much are we given to know?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Thank you Sonship, I will take this into consideration. I am not well versed in the book of Revelation, never have spent much time there, even though I have read it. It is a tough book to understand and there are tons of figures of speech and metaphors which I do not understand.
I have always took the side of the dead are dead and will continue to do so ...[text shortened]... the bible teaches, and I will look into the verses you mention and get a better understanding.

The matter is made clear including the book of Revelation. But I think the case can be made elsewhere as well. You do not have to say "Revelation is too hard, so I cannot see it" if you consider some other passages.

1.) Paul could not have meant non-existence when he wrote that to depart this physical life for the Christian was to be with Christ -

"But if I am to live in the flesh, if this to me is fruit for my work, then I do not know what I will choose. But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for this is far better." (Philippians 1:22,23)

For Paul to die here is to depart to be with Christ not non-existence.
Where Paul may go to "be with Christ" is secondary. For this discussion what is primary is that death to the apostle is not annihilation into nothingness.

2.) Paul also taught that before the resurrection in the glorified body, to die was to be unclothed and found naked - an undesirable state, but not non-existence -

"For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. (v.1)

For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven, If indeed, being clothed, we will not be found naked.(v.2,3)

For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (2 Cor. 5:1-4)

Briefly, the apostle is saying the Christian's body is a tent or tabernacle. Separation of the soul and spirit from the body in death is the taking down of the temporary tabernacle rendering the dead person "unclothed" and "naked".

Paul does not want to be found unclothed and naked without a physical body. Though he said to depart and be with Christ is better it is not the best. The best is to receive a glorified body in resurrection - "clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up in life."

a.) It is not normal or God's desire that departed souls be in heaven.
b.) But it is the case that departed believers, on a relative bases, are with Christ.
c.) Before resurrection, rapture and glorification the departed saints are "with Christ" but not in heaven. They are unclothed. They await to be clothed with their dwelling place eternal, in the heavens. This should mean their glorified and resurrected bodies.

My immediate point is that an unclothed immaterial person is not non-existent, but "naked". At the resurrection all the unclothed and naked saints who have departed and who are with Christ (in a more relative sense) will receive bodies again to clothed them.

3.) Paul's word is that every knee shall bow not only of the living in heaven, the living on earth, but also the departed under the earth.

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him [Christ] the name which is above every name,

That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue openly confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (2:9-11)

We should count those "under the earth" as the naked souls. Some of them are in Paradise like Lazarus. Some of them are in a place of punishment as the rich man. But they are deceased.

Do not ask me where this place is. Do not ask me about bowing knees of immaterial soul/spirits. But as those creatures in heaven must bow and those humans living on earth must bow, so also must those beings, human or otherwise, who are under the earth in Sheol or Hades, must bow and confess Jesus is Lord as well. So though dead they are not non-existent.

Originally posted by galveston75
Wow my friend. You absolutly need to know all you can about Revelation as it is more important today then ever. So much of it is happening now and in the very near future. You life is at stake if you aren't aware of what is happening in connection with that book.

My life is already secure in Christ, even if I never read Revelation. Of those who have studied it thoroughly, there are thousands of differing opinions.

Originally posted by sonship
The matter is made clear including the book of [b]Revelation. But I think the case can be made elsewhere as well. You do not have to say "Revelation is too hard, so I cannot see it" if you consider some other passages.

1.) Paul could not have meant non-existence when he wrote that to depart this physical life for the Christian was to be with ...[text shortened]... onfess Jesus is Lord as well. So though dead they are not non-existent.[/b]

Here is why I believe what I believe...read this study if you wish..


The Dead Are Dead Until the Rapture or Resurrection

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1107