25 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by The Chess Expressno i do not - i live in australia.
Flexmore, do you really live in Antartica?
i do not agree with patriotic/nationalistic flag waving - especially when i disagree with so many of my government's policies.
perhaps "no flag" would more accurately describe my situation - but i like the look of the antarctic flag - it looks like a nice cloud (but is, i suppose, intended as a map).
25 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by flexmoreI get it now 😀
no i do not - i live in australia.
i do not agree with patriotic/nationalistic flag waving - especially when i disagree with so many of my government's policies.
perhaps "no flag" would more accurately describe my situation - but i like the look of the antarctic flag - it looks like a nice cloud (but is, i suppose, intended as a map).
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25 Sep 05
Originally posted by shavixmirMy studies of the bible tell me no, God is not punishing anyone. According to the bible, we are presently under a time of "Grace". Man is free to do as he pleases. The time of God's wrath is yet to come. I believe it is found in the book of Revelation.
With all these storms battering the US, is this God's way of punishing the US for breaking the ten commandments on so many levels?
And if so, can we expect such storms to reach London anytime soon?
My belief has always been that Satan is here to kill, steal and destroy as stated in John 10:10.
Sin has been the culprit of mankind's heartaches over the years.
And of course, Satan plays a huge role. But as far as Hurricanes? No, again, God is not punishing anyone. Does He "allow" evil to happen?.
This has been a dominant cliche in Christian circles. I disagree.
It would be like, I'm talking with a friend and someone comes up behind me and hits me over the head. Then I ask my friend if he saw this guy coming up behind me, and he says yes.
I then say WHY DIDN'T YOU WARN ME?...He says, I saw him coming but "allowed it" for whatever reason....
No, God does not cause nor "allow" hurricanes to happen. The best answer is that He could not stop a particular evil for reasons I cannot fully understand.
I believe it has something to do with promises He cannot break. He cannot interfere in certain "rights" or "authority" that Satan has...
I believe He can intervene, if genuine prayer or requests are made by man...but at the present, the US as a whole is in the process of removing God from it's culture, schools, etc.
The end for Satan is coming, God has promised that. But not yet.
For whatever it's worth, this is my understanding thus far.
Satan was "given" this authority by Adam, way back in the garden of Eden. When he tempts Jesus in the gospel here, notice the offer...
Luke 4:6
6 And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
(NKJ)
There are times when God has to honor this authority to remain Righteous. As I said, I do not understand all the implications, I am still learning...hope this helps or at least leads some to study this further.
25 Sep 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressLet's start here;
You're doing what the church has done. You're editing the Bible. The passages don't read "his mercy endureth forever for believers only" or "I will never forsake believers only". What sense does it make for Psalm 139:7-10 to say that God is with us in Hell if it was only refering to believers? Believers don't go to Hell right?
I've got ...[text shortened]... ain. This parable, without any editing, says that God's mercy extends to those who are in Hell.
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. MATTHEW 18:34
Where did JESUS say that "hell" is temporary. Or that you you go there for a set amount of time.
MARK 9:41-50
JESUS spoke of hell being an unquenchable fire.
MATTHEW 23:13-33
JESUS spoke that those that were or had Hypocrisy, Lawlessness, Greed, self indulgence could not escape being condemned to hell
MATTHEW 25:31-46
JESUS spoke that when the sheep were separrated from the goats (or believers from unbelievers). that the goats(unbelievers) were cursed and put into the eternal fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.
JUDE
THE WORD speaks that eternal chains, punishment of eternal fire, reserved Blackness of Darkness forever. that would be reserved for sinners would it not.
REVELATION chapter 14
THE WORD speaks of the smoke of their torment will go on forever.
REVELATION chapter 20
THE WORD speaks that all that are judged and, those that are not written in The Book of Life. They will be cast into The Lake of fire, and tormented forever.
The entire Book of REVELATION expresses that GOD finally displays HIS anger. Begins to take out HIS anger on those that refuse to worship HIM. In fact GOD clearly that the fire of his anger Burns Forever.
PSALMS 139:7-10
Was that not David exppressing his love and faith in GOD? Was not David (a believer) saying that where ever he went. Whatever sufferring that he was going through. GOD was going to be there with him.
Is it not true that the entire WORD OF GOD, is made up of the words of Believers. Is there any passage in THE WORD, that is expressed by an unbeliever.
I have always been curious how some unbelievers use the words of believers to justify their unbelief.
25 Sep 05
3 edits
Originally posted by blindfaith101These passages may say that hell is forever, but not that people go there forever.
Let's start here;
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. MATTHEW 18:34
Where did JESUS say that "hell" is temporary. Or that you you go there for a set amount of time.
MARK 9:41-50
JESUS spoke of hell being an unquenchable fire.
MATTHEW 23:13-33
JESUS spoke that those that ...[text shortened]... e always been curious how some unbelievers use the words of believers to justify their unbelief.
If somebody is delivered to tormentors till he has repaid his debt, that means that once the debt is paid he is released. That's what the word "till" means.
You still haven't answered my question about Psalm 139:7-10.
David is speaking of nonbeliever's. That is the only way to make sense of the passage. He is saying that even if he were to be cast in Hell with the nonbelievers, the Lord would be with him. Do you believe that David is in Hell now?
Did you ever try thinking about this from a common sense perspective. Why is it easier to believe that God torments people forever (forever as in trillions of years of burning and then it goes on forever) based on a few years here on Earth. Hitler never gave sentences like that.
Rev 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out..." This indicates that we leave God's Kingdom many times. This lends itself to reincarnation.
I'm not saying that I know these passages to be true. For all I know these passages bear little resemblance to what the author's oringinally wrote. This is why we must all find our own truth. This is why scripture filtered by thouwsands of years of human meddling can not be relied on the way the church would have people believe.
25 Sep 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressIf someone is delivered unto the tormenters till he paid his debt. Who decides when that debt is paid? If, lets say; That GOD considers unbelievers to be his enemies. CHRIST has said in, MATTHEW 22:44 and MARK 12:35-40,that the enemies of GOD will be put under HIS feet. Would that not be forever?
These passages may say that hell is forever, but not that people go there forever.
If somebody is delivered to tormentors till he has repaid his debt, that means that once the debt is paid he is released. That's what the word "till" means.
You still haven't answered my question about Psalm 139:7-10.
David is speaking of nonbeliever's. ...[text shortened]... ds of years of human meddling can not be relied on the way the church would have people believe.
How could or why would David speak as or on the behalf of an unbeliever? Yes he was saying that were ever he or believers were, or ever went, GOD would be there. there is nowhere in the creation of GOD, can we go in this life time and be separated from God.Yes it is true in this life time even the unbelievers are only separrated from GOD by their unbelief. But an believer can never be separrated from God. No I donot believe that David is hell right now. How could he be?
26 Sep 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressI believe that I am looking at it from a common sense perspective. I am looking at this from the view of a believer. In fact I believe that common sense dictates that GOD is a seperior being and HE is going to have his way. Common sense also says that it is not common sense, for the created being to think that he could out think, or out smart, the one that created him. Thats what Lucifer/satan thought. GOD could have rightfully destroyed us when we first sinned. HE chose not to. He has given us the opportunity to learn from our mistakes. To learn and understand why HE created us. What our purpose is. How we are supposed to behave.
These passages may say that hell is forever, but not that people go there forever.
If somebody is delivered to tormentors till he has repaid his debt, that means that once the debt is paid he is released. That's what the word "till" means.
You still haven't answered my question about Psalm 139:7-10.
David is speaking of nonbeliever's. ...[text shortened]... ds of years of human meddling can not be relied on the way the church would have people believe.
We must also remember that man was not created to live just a few short years. Man was not created to go thru the pain and sufferring that we do. Man chose to disobey GOD. But we are given a chance to get right with GOD.
We are better off than the angels, they are not getting a second chance. Unlike us they knew better.
26 Sep 05
2 edits
Originally posted by blindfaith101Lets face it, there are no unbelievers in Hell. If they didn't believe in God here on Earth, they do in Hell. Those that go there are the evil ones (I believe that most people are good) and who don't change there ways before they die.
If someone is delivered unto the tormenters till he paid his debt. Who decides when that debt is paid? If, lets say; That GOD considers unbelievers to be his enemies. CHRIST has said in, MATTHEW 22:44 and MARK 12:35-40,that the enemies of GOD will be put under HIS feet. Would that not be forever?
How could or why would David speak as or on the behalf ...[text shortened]... never be separrated from God. No I donot believe that David is hell right now. How could he be?
How can you ask who decides when the debt is paid? The Lord does as Jesus said in the parable. After the debt has been paid, they are then free of sin. So how could they be Gods enemies at that point? Isaiah 43:25 "I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins."
Has it ever occurred to you that God could be telling a so called "believer" (which of coarse means somebody who only believes the way that you do) that his mercy lasts forever for every one? Those passages that I mentioned never specify believers only. That part of it comes from the church. This is the fear mongering that I mentioned before. If God said that his mercy endureth forever, period, that includes everyone. He didn't specify anyone because he meant everyone.
Jesus says we are all Gods children. Isaiah 49:15 "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee." So how could God forget that which he has created?
I John 4:8 says that God is love, and II Timothy 1:7 says that God has given us a sound mind. It would be a pitty not to use it.
26 Sep 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101Then start making sense.
I believe that I am looking at it from a common sense perspective. I am looking at this from the view of a believer. In fact I believe that common sense dictates that GOD is a seperior being and HE is going to have his way. Common sense also says that it is not common sense, for the created being to think that he could out think, or out smart, the one ...[text shortened]... re better off than the angels, they are not getting a second chance. Unlike us they knew better.
26 Sep 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101He has given us the opportunity to learn from our mistakes.
I believe that I am looking at it from a common sense perspective. I am looking at this from the view of a believer. In fact I believe that common sense dictates that GOD is a seperior being and HE is going to have his way. Common sense also says that it is not common sense, for the created being to think that he could out think, or out smart, the one ...[text shortened]... re better off than the angels, they are not getting a second chance. Unlike us they knew better.
finally an example in which you failed to take full advantage of the SHIFT key. maybe you aren't a robot after all.
GOD could have rightfully destroyed us when we first sinned.
what would have been right about it?
26 Sep 05
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterIf one is to believe that God is all powerful, more powerful than the devil, and that he hates evil, then it is necessary to believe that God allows evil.
My studies of the bible tell me no, God is not punishing anyone. According to the bible, we are presently under a time of "Grace". Man is free to do as he pleases. The time of God's wrath is yet to come. I believe it is found in the book of Revelation.
My belief has always been that Satan is here to kill, steal and destroy as stated in John 10:10. ...[text shortened]... mplications, I am still learning...hope this helps or at least leads some to study this further.
Personally I believe that God allows evil to happen primarily for one reason, to get us to turn to him. When things are perfect, God gets forgotten. When people get into trouble then God is often called upon. I think that if this world were perfect nobody would have any interest in God.
As for whether God is punishing us with storms and such, I believe there are two ways of looking at it. On the one hand, God created nature and so the natural laws are his laws. So in a round about way it may seem that God is punishing us.
On the other hand, nature is supposed to be here for our benefit if we can just live in harmony with it. We have so manipulated the environment that nature is just following the coarse that we laid for it. Oceans are heating up, more water evaporates to fuel storms, so now the storms are on average stronger than they used to be.
These things would never be happening if we lived as God intended, so really we just have ourselves to blame.
Anyway, that's my scope on it. Take it or leave it. 🙂
26 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterOne more little detail I forgot to mention. In the King James version, the word authority is not used. Instead, it is power that the devil offers Jesus. This makes a difference in the following way. Since God has given us free will, we may choose to give the devil power by giving into his temptations. If you take a city like Sodom for example, where everybody gave into temptation freely, the devil of coarse had a lot of power there. The fact that God destroyed that city means that God is the authority.
My studies of the bible tell me no, God is not punishing anyone. According to the bible, we are presently under a time of "Grace". Man is free to do as he pleases. The time of God's wrath is yet to come. I believe it is found in the book of Revelation.
My belief has always been that Satan is here to kill, steal and destroy as stated in John 10:10. ...[text shortened]... mplications, I am still learning...hope this helps or at least leads some to study this further.
I don't believe that God made a bad contract with the devil so to speak, and now can't do anything about it. Legal pitfalls are probably an Earthly phenomena.