Originally posted by KellyJayThere is two types of evidence. One type can be used by any intelligent person to convince any other intelligent person that it is valid evidence that points to the thing in question. The other type of evidence cannot be used that way. For example, although you see Gods handwork in life you cannot convincingly justify such a view to any intelligent person who does not already hold such a view.
It is as was brought up in another thread, for some seeing life
is evidence that God is real, or the way the universe is set up. You
have no desire to see God's handy work no matter how clear it is.
Kelly
Originally posted by Marinkatomb1- My mind tell me that this universe didn't come from not where.
Because there's nothing to suggest he's in the picture. Give me one good reason (that isn't based on superstition) why you think there is a God and i'll accept he's in the picture.
2- My mind tell me that every thing has a cause to do it.
3- Human tried to explain the cause of every thing, but it always leads to a chaing of reasoning. For example:
You assume that Natural selection casued different speciece development. But they are depending in Physical laws to do so. Where these physical laws came from, where all the material that form all living and non living stuff came from, or what cause it to come. No one gave an answer. So we this tell me that there must be another cause that cause it to happen or exist. And this thing is not from the same material and not following the same laws because he/she/it the cause for it. That is my logic tell me.
Note I didn't assume that this thing, or being is intellegant, I just assumed that these laws and material didn't come from no where, so give me a reason why shouldn't I think so, while every thing follow this rule.
Now at separate intervals in human history some people claim to have a message from that being. Saying that he is intellegant being, and he created everything. And he supported them with some power to prove that they really came from him. And also they told us what this being wants from him. Of course some believed them and some not. Some choosed to believed them because the thought the power given to them shows enough evidence that they are true. Other thought that it is magic or illusion or lake of science, and refused to believe them.
I found what those men said make sense, and actually parts from what they said and did clearly prove that that being exist.
So if you refuse to listen to them just because you don't believe that this being exist is not valide.
Does this make any sense to you?
In this thread, I explained this in more details, here is one of my posts there:
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=56871
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To complete my answer:
When I studied Islamic Faith in school and university, we learned to have a logical evidence for every part of our faith beside using Quran. We always started by the logical explaination first. This includes the existance of GOD himself. We do so because Quran ask us to use our minds. Quran ask both belivers and no belivers to use their minds every where in the Quran. So muslims don't have a blind faith, they don't accept anything without a prove.
I will try to give an Idea.(It might be wrong, I will be happy if you can correct me) From what I have seen so far athiest like you using their mind know that our existance is related to some greater force. Some call it nature, and some call it the universe, and religous people call it GOD. GOD, or Allah ,is the name he give to himself.
But I see the problem is naming problem. The only problem with Athiest don't belive that this force could have some intellegece, and it may ask them for something. But I see they all share the same Idea that there is something that result in our existance.
So some belive that this thing has no intellegance, and they have logical explaination.
Also some belive that this thing might have intellegance too. And that has logical explaination too.
But both agree that it is there.
What breaks this ambiguity is that this thing tell you about himself.
In this case we will know it? And that the message we talk about.
I assume that Islam is the message that sent to me from this being telling me about himself.
So:
1- Rejecting the message just because you belive that this thing is not intellegent is not logic. It exactly "GOD doesn't exist so Quran is not true".
"The logic say if the Quran is not true then GOD doesn't exist"
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2- Lets go back to our options but I will make it general now:
We have two main options now:
A- You know about the message. I mean you know there are some people claim that they got a message from that Being: Here we have two expected reactions from you:
I- You go to know the message: And here come my three options that I said before:
1- You go to know the message. make sense to you. The ambiguity is gone. You know that being and what he wants from you. And now no punishment.
2- You go to know the message. make sense to you. But for some reason you refused to do what this being want from you. Then you accept the consequences.
3- You go to know the message. doesn't make sense to you. And so you are sure that this being is not intellegent one. Don't worry!!!
II- You don't seek to know the message:
Here you might do that because you trust your logic and don't want to accept the other option. That is exactly the same experiance the religion people face when you show them that their faith might be wrong. They may refuse to hear you because they are afriad to appear like being fooled , or they are so sure of their faith. Same apply to this case. You will not try to hear the message because either you are afriad that you might be wrong or, you trust you faith so much. But in both cases you didn't give yourself the chance to know wheather the message is true or false. If it is true, then you will be punished becaue you don't have an execuse.
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B- You don't know about the message. No one told you and you have no clue to know
In this case there is no problem to you. Belive what ever you belive. You have no problem.
But today no one can claim that. It is an open world. Also it is the responsibility of the people who know the message to give it to every one.
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If you take Islam as the message. You know now where you are?
Did I answer your question?
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Originally posted by ahosyneyYour mind could be wrong. Why don't you ask it who told it all those things?
1- My mind tell me that this universe didn't come from not where.
2- My mind tell me that every thing has a cause to do it.
3- Human tried to explain the cause of every thing, but it always leads to a chaing of reasoning.
Essentially all your points are based on superstition and not reason.
There is no difference between what you are saying and the following:
"My mind tell me there is a God so I therefore conclude there is a God."
You then claim that such stupid reasoning is a logical explanation and does not start with any assumptions. Clearly false.
Originally posted by twhiteheadIs there any action without a cause? If yes give me an example !!!
Your mind could be wrong. Why don't you ask it who told it all those things?
Essentially all your points are based on superstition and not reason.
There is no difference between what you are saying and the following:
"My mind tell me there is a God so I therefore conclude there is a God."
You then claim that such stupid reasoning is a logical explanation and does not start with any assumptions. Clearly false.
Originally posted by twhiteheadYour mind could be wrong. Why don't you ask it who told it all those things?
Your mind could be wrong. Why don't you ask it who told it all those things?
Essentially all your points are based on superstition and not reason.
There is no difference between what you are saying and the following:
"My mind tell me there is a God so I therefore conclude there is a God."
You then claim that such stupid reasoning is a logical explanation and does not start with any assumptions. Clearly false.
So do your mind. Why do you trust your mind so much?
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou then claim that such stupid reasoning is a logical explanation and does not start with any assumptions. Clearly false.
Your mind could be wrong. Why don't you ask it who told it all those things?
Essentially all your points are based on superstition and not reason.
There is no difference between what you are saying and the following:
"My mind tell me there is a God so I therefore conclude there is a God."
You then claim that such stupid reasoning is a logical explanation and does not start with any assumptions. Clearly false.
The only assuption I made is that every action has a cause.
Does this has anything to do with GOD existance?
Is this assupmtion Wrong?
EDIT: Stupid is a good word for attacking others thoughts, but it does prove nothing.
I will add another point:
All physical phenomenons, are based on transformation of Energy:
"the conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant, although it may change forms,"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
In in relativly theory Einstine found a relation between mass and energy , which was the basis for Nuclar energy.
This tell us there is a constant energy in this univrse, transforming from one form to another.
So where this energy came from, and where did the laws that control transformation of energy came from?
EDIT: Of course you will ask why it should be GOD? And I say it shouldn't be GOD. But when I have a message supported with evidances that it couldn't be fake, then I have to think about GOD.
Originally posted by twhiteheadplease name the baseless assumptions...
I don't have a mind that reads out baseless assumptions to me.
EDIT: Do you know what your mind do? it prevent you from reading my post because you think I have a problem in my mind to believe that there is GOD...
Originally posted by ahosyneyWho says they need to come from somewhere? Who says there is a somewhere to come from? The questions themselves show that you are making assumptions without any reason to do so.
So where this energy came from, and where did the laws that control transformation of energy came from?
Originally posted by twhiteheadis no known cause means that there is no cause!!!
Example 1.
All activity on the quantum scale has random elements ie no known cause.
This includes the spontaneous creation of matter.
Example 2.
The origin of the universe has no known cause.
who made baseless assumptions here...
Originally posted by twhiteheadThat is what you don't read:
Who says they need to come from somewhere? Who says there is a somewhere to come from? The questions themselves show that you are making assumptions without any reason to do so.
Prophets and Messangers, that the source of these energy talked to in order to tell the remaining humans that he is the cause.