If you were God?

Originally posted by dottewell
Yes, Whodey. That's precisely my point. Why would god create man?

If his goal was to make us suffer then he would be sadistic. However, I could be suffering to a greater extent than I am currently. Why am I afforded pleasure and love as well as suffering if he is all about suffering. Therefore, it seems to me that this is not what God is all about. It seems to me that love is humanities greatest treasure. Without it we are nothing. It also seems to me that the created must reflect the needs and desires of the Creator. Therefore, he must have created us to share love.

Originally posted by whodey
If his goal was to make us suffer then he would be sadistic. However, I could be suffering to a greater extent than I am currently. Why am I afforded pleasure and love as well as suffering if he is all about suffering. Therefore, it seems to me that this is not what God is all about. It seems to me that love is humanities greatest treasure. Without it we ...[text shortened]... reflect the needs and desires of the Creator. Therefore, he must have created us to share love.

Your god knew, when he created man, that countless millions would ultimately be deprived of this "love".

Why would a being with infinite properties need anyone to share love with? Is he somehow incomplete without it?

Originally posted by darvlay
What do you think, question boy?

I do not believe murder and/or war hinges upon religion. If all religion went away, we would still have murder and war.

Originally posted by Starrman
Are you suggesting that you know the full nature of god? You presume too much, this is my god, not yours. Besides, why should there not be a natural order to the world I create?

My God comes from scripture. Therefore, what scripture says about God I can presume to be accurate. As far as there being a natural order to things, how would the physical universe behave if there were no physical law governing them? Would it not be chaos? How can one work in chaos?

Originally posted by whodey
I do not believe murder and/or war hinges upon religion. If all religion went away, we would still have murder and war.

Looking at history; the conquests, atrocities and genocides performed in the name of someone's god (Yhwh, Allah, Baal, Christ, Shakalakamaka, etc.). Are you implying that if there was no such thing as religion, that we would still have the SAME amount of murder and war throughout our history?

Bear in mind that as God, I would also eliminate racial conflicts (that aren't religion based) as well.

Originally posted by Starrman
They weren't limitations, they were expectations. I am hardly likely to give the gift of godhead to people not ready to recieve it. There is no line for them to step over, merely conditions of which they are unaware that, if met, will provide reward. Why would I do anything about their actions, they have free will remember. I can see you're having a really hard time reconciling this against your idea of god.

So you would not penalize them in any way for their behavoir? In fact, they could kill each other off and you would not lift a finger. But you would reward them for behavoir you "liked". Is'nt withholding a reward based on bad behavoir punitive?

Originally posted by whodey
My God comes from scripture. Therefore, what scripture says about God I can presume to be accurate. As far as there being a natural order to things, how would the physical universe behave if there were no physical law governing them? Would it not be chaos? How can one work in chaos?

I fail to see the point in your question. You asked me what I would do if I was god, I told you and now you dsagree that this is what a god would do? How so? I am god here, not you. Unless you are suggesting that men created god...

Originally posted by Starrman
Unless you are suggesting that men created god...

You clever monkey.

Originally posted by whodey
So you would not penalize them in any way for their behavoir? In fact, they could kill each other off and you would not lift a finger. But you would reward them for behavoir you "liked". Is'nt withholding a reward based on bad behavoir punitive?

No of course not, since there is no reward for behaviour at all. The gift of godly powers is merely something they may or may not achieve by evolving to be capable of understanding and manipulating. It is written into the possiblity of their evolution, not their behaviour. A bit like Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke.

Originally posted by dottewell
Your god knew, when he created man, that countless millions would ultimately be deprived of this "love".

Why would a being with infinite properties need anyone to share love with? Is he somehow incomplete without it?

Just to sharpen this point: how could a perfect being, with complete knowledge of the consequences, do something (creating man) to introduce imperfection into existence?

Did creating man make existence better? If so, was it imperfect before?

Originally posted by darvlay
Looking at history; the conquests, atrocities and genocides performed in the name of someone's god (Yhwh, Allah, Baal, Christ, Shakalakamaka, etc.). Are you implying that if there was no such thing as religion, that we would still have the SAME amount of murder and war throughout our history?

Bear in mind that as God, I would also eliminate racial conflicts (that aren't religion based) as well.

In the present world, if there is no God then religion is a man made construct. Why is there a need for this construct? If you do away with this construct, will man then feel the need to replace it with another construct that also promotes war that is equal to or greater than that of religion? As we both know, war is not often fought over trying to get another to worship as you do. It usually involves a power struggle over resources and personal power. Religion does make a compelling carrot to dangle in ones face to rationalize such violence, however. You can then rationalize the hate and violence by saying that God wills it. It is much easier to send people to their deaths if you promise them 50 virgins in candyland. I will conceede that much.

Have you considered a man like Stalin? He was an atheist. In fact, he was at war with religion. He closed down the churches and persectued anyone who claimed to be religios. He also killed off any suspected rivals to his power. It is estimated that he murdered close to 5 times as many million people as did Hitler. Would you add to the list personal ambition as well as religion and racial struggles as to what you would eliminate? For me, personal ambition and the desire to elivate ones standing in the world is at the heart of all conflicts. Look at Napolean, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam etc. These men sought glory for themselves as well conquest of their neighbors to expand their respective empires. You could say that religion can then be used to get others to fight your wars for you if you like.

Originally posted by whodey
In the present world, if there is no God then religion is a man made construct. Why is there a need for this construct? If you do away with this construct, will man then feel the need to replace it with another construct that also promotes war that is equal to or greater than that of religion? As we both know, war is not often fought over trying to get ano ...[text shortened]... u could say that religion can then be used to get others to fight your wars for you if you like.

We've been over this a hundred times. Stalin killed people not because he was an atheist, but because he was a power hungry lunatic. He may also have been an atheist, but if he was not, he'd still have been a power hungry atheist. Atheism does not, nor has it ever, suggested anyone hold any beliefs outside of a denial of god. Certainly not that you should exterminate millions of people for their beliefs.

Originally posted by Starrman
We've been over this a hundred times. Stalin killed people not because he was an atheist, but because he was a power hungry lunatic. He may also have been an atheist, but if he was not, he'd still have been a power hungry atheist. Atheism does not, nor has it ever, suggested anyone hold any beliefs outside of a denial of god. Certainly not that you should exterminate millions of people for their beliefs.

I agree. The reason I bring up the fact he was an atheist is because there are those who may think religion is the impetuous for war. This is simply absurd.

Originally posted by whodey
I agree. The reason I bring up the fact he was an atheist is because there are those who may think religion is the impetuous for war. This is simply absurd.

All this shows is that religion isn't the reason for all wars. I don't think anyone ever said it was.

Originally posted by dottewell
All this shows is that religion isn't the reason for all wars. I don't think anyone ever said it was.

Thank you, Dott.