Originally posted by twhitehead
So is it some spiritual law that you found out about (through the Bible or some other means) or is it a spiritual law that is a logical outcome of the universe or something?
Why do Theists so often talk about the necessity of paying for sins etc as if it is a self evident fact when in reality it isn't self evident at all?

What is self-evident is that there exists a Creator, presumably personal, and we are removed from this Creator, for whatever reason.

Beyond those basics, we don't have a lot of information about this Creator. Thankfully, we have divine revelation to tell us more. It is there that we discover that this Creator is more than just personal, He is perfect, which is also part of the reason we find ourselves in a state of detachment from Him.

The divine revelation tells us about His economy, His plans and purposes, His dealings with man and on man's behalf throughout our history, and exactly how things work. Here, we find out why payment was necessary as well as what type of payment would be considered acceptable.

Originally posted by whodey
From a worldy perspective, we see people committing various "sins" such as rape, murder, theft etc,. So tell me, what are the outcomes for people who committ such "sins"? It seems to me that they have a higher propensity to meet their maker a lot sooner than say a law abiding citizen for obvious reasons.

I would agree that for certain crimes there is a lower life expectancy, but there are obvious and known reasons for this.
To draw any conclusion that the lower life expectancy was due to some spiritual law regarding sin seems to me to be going too far.
1. It is obvious that many people sin in other ways that do not result in lower life expectancy.
2. The fact that it only results in lower life expectancy and not actually a guaranteed shorter life means that there are plenty of people who commit murder and rape and still live long lives.
3. The lowest life expectancy is actually a result of circumstance (being born in a third world country etc) not any action on the behalf of the person. Next you will be telling us that being born in Zambia is a sin.(life expectancy in Zambia is about 35)

So it is hardly self evident, and more importantly, it is quite obvious that you did not discover the rule by looking at life expectancy but assumed the rule before looking at the facts then claimed the relationship later.

Lastly, you seem to be confusing two types of 'life' ie physical life and spiritual life which as you well know are not equivalent in the slightest.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
What is self-evident is that there exists a Creator, presumably personal,

Interesting that it is self evident to you but you are unable to explain this self evidence to me.

Originally posted by stoker
if there is no one to account for my sin then i must pay for that sin.
every sin will be accounted for, and every good deed will be held in balance,.
where is the justice, with gods son

So you believe in some kind of credit/debit system?

is this system known to Man (or is it personal)?

how do Catholics reconcile this with confession?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
So you believe in some kind of credit/debit system?

is this system known to Man (or is it personal)?

how do Catholics reconcile this with confession?

I guess the Catholics can almost do what they want as long as they go to confession. Doesn't make sense or is taught anywhere in the Bible, but it's their deal.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Interesting that it is self evident to you but you are unable to explain this self evidence to me.

Ha-ha. You big kidder, you. Apparently, it is so self-evident that whole fields of study have been established to explain away the obvious. Or are these fields of study not all that obvious to you?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
(The thread title is a quote from Whodey.)

I think that one of the appealing features of Christianity (and perhaps more so: Catholicism) is the forgivness of sins.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this forgiveness over-ride all aspirations to 'justice'?

Wasnt the OT 'an eye for an eye' and the NT 'turn the other cheek'?

I believe this Chris ...[text shortened]... rehabilitation above justice/revenge.

Of course we still have a long, long way to go!!

I wholeheartedly agree!

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Ha-ha. You big kidder, you. [/B]

I am quite serious. If something is self evident to you then one would expect that you could explain it to me in a way that would make it self evident to me too. I realize this is not always the case as sometimes our ability at explanation is not as good as our ability of deduction.

Apparently, it is so self-evident that whole fields of study have been established to explain away the obvious. Or are these fields of study not all that obvious to you?
I don't understand what you are saying here. Can you elaborate?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I would agree that for certain crimes there is a lower life expectancy, but there are obvious and known reasons for this.
To draw any conclusion that the lower life expectancy was due to some spiritual law regarding sin seems to me to be going too far.
1. It is obvious that many people sin in other ways that do not result in lower life expectancy.
2. T ...[text shortened]... e physical life and spiritual life which as you well know are not equivalent in the slightest.

Its true that physical life and spiritual life are two different things entirely. It is also true that leading a "good" life does not gaurantee long life. However, I would argue that on average it does. In fact, I have seen statistics saying that those who attend church regularly live longer and are healthier overall. I don't think it is hard to understand why, do you? Having said that, does this mean that everyone attending church is "saved"? Nope, that is not what I am saying either.