I Shall Remember

Originally posted by black beetle
What makes me think that the incidents I mentioned are facts? History. And also Flapan himself.

Examining “Myth Five” at the book you mention, Flapan states that the Arab invasion was caused by the decision by the Jewish leadership to declare statehood at May 14, due to the fact (according to his evaluation) that the Arabs had accepted the last minut ...[text shortened]... think. If you still think that your "plans" can work, kindly please show me the way.

You're making the (common) mistake of thinking the Arabs and the Palestinians were on the same side during the wars. The Palestinian-Zionist war was from 1947 to 1948; the Arab-Israeli war was from 1948 to 1949.

Originally posted by black beetle
The way the Arabs decided to react is "what prompted it". If they had accept the UN note 181/ 1947, the Palestinians would enjoy today their own country at the soil of Palestine.

Don't talk to me about UN resolutions unless you're willing to throw all the ones that Israel violated at a Zionist as well.

Originally posted by black beetle
BTW, what is your opinion regarding Imad Mughniyeh?
Do you believe that he was a great warrior or a "martyr"?

Mughiyeh was not a Palestinian, but the answer to your questions are "yes" and "no," respectively. Yes, he was a fighter, and one that I admire, but I don't consider a car bomb to be a martyr's death.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The media already frequently does that. Also martyr operations supposedly have publicity as their main purpose and thus frequently try to get that message out. But I am not convinced that it is having any effect in terms of discouraging Israel or even gaining significant support for the Palestinians internationally.
However if a key figure in Iran or so ...[text shortened]... d think twice before continuing his financial support.
I could be wrong but it is worth a shot.

So, you think the martyr operations funded by various governments are merely a drive for power? You're half-right. It's been demonstrated many times that every Arab government (keep in mind that Iran is not Arab) represses the Palestinians, sometimes violently, while countries like Syria pretend to support them by funding various factions, but really end up driving them apart, etc. ad infinitum, but I don't think that most martyr operations (except those carried out by al-Fatah, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, or the PFLP-GC) are set up to maintain the power of a government.

Originally posted by scherzo
You're making the (common) mistake of thinking the Arabs and the Palestinians were on the same side during the wars. The Palestinian-Zionist war was from 1947 to 1948; the Arab-Israeli war was from 1948 to 1949.

What is my mistake? The Palestinians and the Israelis were already at war, and after May 15, 1948, the five Arab nations invaded the soil of Palestine under Abdullah I’s commandment. I am aware of Abdullah’s stratagem and his agreement with Meir thus I understand what you mean, however you cannot claim that the Allied Arab forces were not operating overall against the Partition plan and against the declaration of independence of Israel with the intention to cause havoc. Unfortunately, it all turned bad for the Palestinians, which they appear to be unable to establish the right alliances.

Once one studies the facts he can realize that the Arabs started a “holy war” without having done the slightest evaluation of the position. And the Israelis prevailed. Everything else that followed was just the result of the false strategy of the Palestinians and of the Arabs. And yet you propose that the Palestinians must follow this false doctrine, but this is futile and fatal. Futile, because the Palestinians will gain nothing. And fatal because the result will be nothing more than a higher death toll.

Originally posted by scherzo
Don't talk to me about UN resolutions unless you're willing to throw all the ones that Israel violated at a Zionist as well.

You insist that the UN note 181/ 1947 is out of order, but if this proposal was accepted by the Palestinians, they would be able today to live in their own country at the soil of Palestine. Why, in your opinion, the Palestinians refused to accept it?

Furthermore, are you aware of the fact that since 1948 the Palestinians are losing a war after a war just because their leadership is acting out of the blue? Have you ever asked yourself who wins out of this situation? Have you got any clue regarding who is earning money and power out of all that jazz, and what is his major aim?

Originally posted by scherzo
Mughiyeh was not a Palestinian, but the answer to your questions are "yes" and "no," respectively. Yes, he was a fighter, and one that I admire, but I don't consider a car bomb to be a martyr's death.

He was just another Hezbollah terrorist, thus a common murderer, and on the other hand his nationality was not a problem at all when he organized and run the illustrious Force 17 amongst else. But since you admire him, it would be good to advertise him to your fellow Americans for starters -why should you leave the citizens of Ohio to keep up living with the delusion that this hero is a zero?

Originally posted by scherzo
So, you think the martyr operations funded by various governments are merely a drive for power? You're half-right. It's been demonstrated many times that every Arab government (keep in mind that Iran is not Arab) represses the Palestinians, sometimes violently, while countries like Syria pretend to support them by funding various factions, but really end up ...[text shortened]... e al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, or the PFLP-GC) are set up to maintain the power of a government.

The “martyr operations”, an euphemism for the action of murdering civilians, drove the Palestinians nowhere. And in the future they will drive them nowhere too. Every time the Palestinians did it, they just gave the Israelis the excuse to tear them apart. Or not?

Originally posted by scherzo
So, you think the martyr operations funded by various governments are merely a drive for power? You're half-right. It's been demonstrated many times that every Arab government (keep in mind that Iran is not Arab) represses the Palestinians, sometimes violently, while countries like Syria pretend to support them by funding various factions, but really end up e al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, or the PFLP-GC) are set up to maintain the power of a government.

Actually I believe that a lot of wealthy people both in government and in business are benefiting from instability in the middle east. This includes a wide range of people from those who control oil companies in the middle east to arms manufacturers and politicians with links to arms manufacturers in the US.
I think that many such people actively try to keep the instability going.

If you look at Zimbabwe, most people incorrectly think Mugabe is responsible for everything that has gone wrong. The truth is that there are a large number of people with a strong interest (sometimes financial) in keeping things bad. Many are simply afraid that if the government changes then their wrong doings under Mugabe will be scrutinized.

But I cannot see any way in which the martyr operations can be possibly an attempt at solving the overall problem. They are either revenge attacks, or driven by people who do not want peace. Any sensible person after trying something hundreds of times without achieving their objective will change tactic. The fact that they are not changing tactic makes me think that their goal is not what they advertise it to be.

Originally posted by black beetle
What is my mistake? The Palestinians and the Israelis were already at war, and after May 15, 1948, the five Arab nations invaded the soil of Palestine under Abdullah I’s commandment. I am aware of Abdullah’s stratagem and his agreement with Meir thus I understand what you mean, however you cannot claim that the Allied Arab forces were not operating over ...[text shortened]... s will gain nothing. And fatal because the result will be nothing more than a higher death toll.

What is my mistake? The Palestinians and the Israelis were already at war, and after May 15, 1948, the five Arab nations invaded the soil of Palestine under Abdullah I’s commandment. I am aware of Abdullah’s stratagem and his agreement with Meir thus I understand what you mean, however you cannot claim that the Allied Arab forces were not operating overall against the Partition plan and against the declaration of independence of Israel with the intention to cause havoc. Unfortunately, it all turned bad for the Palestinians, which they appear to be unable to establish the right alliances.

They were acting either for or against a plan between Abdullah I and Zionist leaders against Israeli annexation of the West Bank and Gaza (as was the Israeli plan).

Originally posted by black beetle
You insist that the UN note 181/ 1947 is out of order, but if this proposal was accepted by the Palestinians, they would be able today to live in their own country at the soil of Palestine. Why, in your opinion, the Palestinians refused to accept it?

Furthermore, are you aware of the fact that since 1948 the Palestinians are losing a war after a war ...[text shortened]... y clue regarding who is earning money and power out of all that jazz, and what is his major aim?

The Palestinians refused to accept it because it gave well over 50% of the land to a group that made up about 30% (generously) of the population of the Mandate. Also note that the Israelis were very reluctant to accept it, and did so only as a temporary measure (Myth 1 in the aforementioned book).

Originally posted by black beetle
He was just another Hezbollah terrorist, thus a common murderer, and on the other hand his nationality was not a problem at all when he organized and run the illustrious Force 17 amongst else. But since you admire him, it would be good to advertise him to your fellow Americans for starters -why should you leave the citizens of Ohio to keep up living with the delusion that this hero is a zero?

The British called the American patriots terrorist, but now we consider people like Patrick Henry and Samuel Adams to be heroes.

Originally posted by black beetle
The “martyr operations”, an euphemism for the action of murdering civilians, drove the Palestinians nowhere. And in the future they will drive them nowhere too. Every time the Palestinians did it, they just gave the Israelis the excuse to tear them apart. Or not?

The “martyr operations”, an euphemism for the action of murdering civilians ...

Most of the recent ones have been against military targets, and that's called war, not terrorism.

The “martyr operations”, an euphemism for the action of murdering civilians, drove the Palestinians nowhere. And in the future they will drive them nowhere too. Every time the Palestinians did it, they just gave the Israelis the excuse to tear them apart. Or not?

It's true, it doesn't accomplish much. But sometimes people feel that they have nothing left to live for.

Originally posted by scherzo
[b]What is my mistake? The Palestinians and the Israelis were already at war, and after May 15, 1948, the five Arab nations invaded the soil of Palestine under Abdullah I’s commandment. I am aware of Abdullah’s stratagem and his agreement with Meir thus I understand what you mean, however you cannot claim that the Allied Arab forces were not operating overal ...[text shortened]... Zionist leaders against Israeli annexation of the West Bank and Gaza (as was the Israeli plan).

Cmon scherzo, we both know that the Palestinian fighters were supported by differ Arab forces under this ombrella🙂

Originally posted by scherzo
The Palestinians refused to accept it because it gave well over 50% of the land to a group that made up about 30% (generously) of the population of the Mandate. Also note that the Israelis were very reluctant to accept it, and did so only as a temporary measure (Myth 1 in the aforementioned book).

Again, check the map. The field from Bersheeba to the see is Negev, pure dead desert that is, so what?
The Israelis were eager to accept the proposal "as is" and they were bargaining as usually😵