25 May 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobie😴
is that the best you got? a quotation from terrier sack? come on FMF you are better than that, these things are not muddles as he pontificates, they are actually crystal clear, and his reference to debris is but his own perception, he does not like it that others are different, or have different perceptions to him, he can tell you know! he is not o ...[text shortened]... ous, you and terrier sack, Borging around, we have it all figured out!, we shall assimilate you!
25 May 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell, you posted eight times since I responded, and not once did you seriously address the points I raised. Eight times. Deadly silent, in THAT sense.
i never went deadly silent, i had to do stuff
You stated that hundreds of Indonesians are in prison because they are conscientious objectors. Have you got a link to back that up?
No. You haven't.
Do you retract it?
We shall see.
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25 May 09
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFirst off, I would rather assimilate the most disgusting poison than a single cell from from the inactive lump of tissue that lounges around on the base of your neck. Second, I'm not the person making unsubstantiated and uniformed claims that only demonstrate a lack of reading comprehension. An honorable person would apologize for their misinformation and strive to do better in the future.
we have it all figured out!, we shall assimilate you!
25 May 09
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFthis was the source, which as you correctly pointed out, was for south Korea,
Well, you posted eight times since I responded, and not once did you seriously address the points I raised. Eight times. Deadly silent, in THAT sense.
You stated that hundreds of Indonesians are in prison because they are conscientious objectors. Have you got a link to back that up?
No. You haven't.
Do you retract it?
We shall see.
About 420 conscientious objectors have been arrested for violating Article 88, Section 1, of the conscription law, according to data collected by an organization of families of conscientious objectors who have been arrested.
therefore i must admit that having based my testimony on the above, it seems that i was mistaken, and as yet I have no evidence that conscientious objection is punishable with incarceration, in Indonesia.
Alas i am, but flesh and bones, and fallible! although it pains me to admit it! 🙂
25 May 09
1 edit
Originally posted by TerrierJackan honorable person? what do you know about that, oh sorry i forgot, you know how to think for others, that anything out of sync with your little planet is debris, you really should change your name to Terrier Sack, its so much much more appropriate.
First off, I would rather assimilate the most disgusting poison than a single cell from from the inactive lump of tissue that lounges around on the base of your neck. Second, I'm not the person making unsubstantiated and uniformed claims that only demonstrate a lack of reading comprehension. An honorable person would apologize for their misinformation and strive to do better in the future.
25 May 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieGood for you for saying so. Fallibility, yes, it lurks and it strikes. I never accused you of lying though, please note - another flesh and blones problem, if ever there was one. I went for "Ignorant and/or disingenuous", which pulled its punch just a little.
Alas i am, but flesh and bones, and fallible! although it pains me to admit it! 🙂
Now I am flesh and blones like you. Why is it you cut straight to the "you're a liar" and "you are a peddler of 'baseless assertions'" with me when I write something you don't like to read - something that doesn't fit with what you want to believe is the truth?
Why am I not just another far off witness who adds to your world view in some small way? What is whatever I say "fiction"?
Why does YOUR ideology automatically turn ME into a "liar"?
Is this Christianity in action?
25 May 09
5 edits
Originally posted by FMFok FMF, please tell me which part of this is lies, as you have stated
Good for you for saying so. Fallibility, yes, it lurks and it strikes. I never accused you of lying though, please note - another flesh and blones problem, if ever there was one. I went for "Ignorant and/or disingenuous", which pulled its punch just a little.
Now I am flesh and blones like you. Why is it you cut straight to the "you're a liar" and "you are a ideology automatically turn ME into a "liar"?
Is this Christianity in action?
Indonesian judges on 1 September sentenced three women to three years in prison for allowing Muslim children to attend a Christian Sunday School programme.
Rebekka Zakaria, Eti Pangesti and Ratna Bangun received the sentence after judges found them guilty of violating the Child Protection Act of 2002, which forbids "deception, lies or enticement" causing a child to convert to another religion.
The maximum sentence for violation of the Act is five years in prison and a fine of 100 million rupiah (£5,375).
The Sunday school teachers had instructed the children to get permission from their parents before attending the programme, and those who did not have permission were asked to go home, according to Jeff Hammond of Bless Indonesia Today, a Christian foundation operating in Jakarta.
None of the children had converted to Christianity.
When the verdict was announced at 11:00am local time, the courtroom erupted with shouts of "Allahu akbar", "God is great"
The women plan to appeal the conviction.
A source who spoke with Rebekka Zakaria by phone as the three women were waiting to be taken into the courtroom for the verdict said she was calm and confident. Rebekka said the situation did not look hopeful but that some day, "in God's time", all three women would "walk free from the prison."
The three women, described by friends as "ordinary housewives", were relieved they had not been given the maximum five-year prison sentence.
All three, however, are devastated at the prospect of being separated from their children, who range from 6 to 19 years of age.
As they have done throughout the trial, Islamists made murderous threats both inside and outside the courtroom. Several truckloads of extremists arrived, and one brought a coffin in which to bury the accused if they were found innocent.
"The ladies, witnesses and judges were constantly under threats of violence from hundreds of Islamic radicals who threatened to kill the three ladies, witnesses, pastors, missionaries and even the judges if the women were acquitted," Mr Hammond reported.
A video of this alraming activity can be viewed here (courtesy of Jubilee Campaign).
Before a court proceeding on 25 August, the Islamists warned the judges that they were willing to shed their own blood if the women were not found guilty.
for if you cannot state, with any certainty that any of it is lies, then your assertion that it is lies, is baseless, and your accusations, fictitious and my statement stands!
🙂
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25 May 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieGo ahead and insult me -- it really shows how bankrupt and meaningless your supposed faith is - it has done nothing to make you a better person. You appear to only use it as an excuse to justify making public the worst parts of yourself.
an honorable person? what do you know about that, oh sorry i forgot, you know how to think for others, that anything out of sync with your little planet is debris, you really should change your name to Terrier Sack, its so much much more appropriate.
25 May 09
Originally posted by TerrierJackactually what is amazing about persons like you is, they expect moral perfection, when in a state of imperfection, it is quite impossible, but you knew that already, didn't you! you come to a spirituality forum devoid of it, with the intent, that you have nothing to offer but a tearing down, your posts are characterized by a vacuous ill will and intent and when someone responds in kind to your vitriolic statements, you have the audacity to question their morality, you are a hypocrite, and if there is one thing i loath, its hypocrisy.
Go ahead and insult me -- it really shows how bankrupt and meaningless your supposed faith is - it has done nothing to make you a better person. You appear to only use it as an excuse to justify making public the worst parts of yourself.
25 May 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieActually not true. Yes, there are many Muslims out there who are far more conservative than the average Christian, but Islam is actually more liberal than either of the other two Abrahamic faiths.
i am mot entirely convinced by this argument Scherzo, for Islam, in its acknowledgment of fate and predestination, must be, along with Hinduism, one of the most conservative ideologies out there. i am rich because, inshalla, god willing, you are poor, because it is your fate.
Why?
Just look at the five pillars.
1. Declaration of faith - all religions have some variant of this in their faiths. Look at the Apostle's Creed.
2. Saleh - prayer 5 times a day. Most religions have some sort of specified prayer schedule. I acknowledge that Muslims pray more times per day than the other Abrahamics, but that doesn't make it conservative.
3. Hawm - fasting during Ramadan and other selected holidays. All faiths have this as a requirement for certain holidays.
4. Zakat - welfare tax. Neither Christianity or Judaism has a requirement for helping the poor, but Islam does. Sound conservative? It isn't.
5. Hajj - pilgrimage. Admittedly, no other faith has a required pilgrimage (or highly recommended pilgrimage). Again, though, not really conservative, and the Qur'an specifies that pilgrimage should only be taken once (more is ok, but not in any way required) and only if the pilgrim is financially able and doesn't have people depending on his presence at home.
Zakat especially shows that Islam is in no way conservative.
25 May 09
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou've plucked this story off a fanatical Chrtistian blog. So... what? It's true then until proven otherwise?
if you cannot state, with any certainty that any of it is lies, then your assertion that it is lies, is baseless, and your accusations, fictitious and my statement stands!
This story is in fact splashed across several fanatical Christian blogs.
Let's use the original one you linked us to rather than the one above which is short on facts and ripe with emotional assertions passed off as facts.
http://www.opendoorsuk.org.uk/news/news_archives/001913.php
Three Indonesian ladies who have been serving a prison sentence for their Christian beliefs and witness, were today released from Indramayu State Prison, West Java.
They weren't "serving a prison sentence[s] for their Christian beliefs and witness". To start a blog article with an assertion like this marks its card straight away.
They served prison sentences for breaching Indonesia's 2002 Child Protection Law.
Nobody is serving a prison sentence for their "Christian beliefs and witness in Indonesia". It is constitutionally impossible.
Terrible start. This is not honest journalism.
They had served two years of a three-year sentence handed out for running a 'Sunday School' for local Muslim children.
They'd served 16 months in fact. Funny that they got this fact wrong. Wonder why.
Most of the other Christian blogs even admit it was in fact a kindergarten, and not a 'Sunday School'. Maybe the blogger knows he/she is fibbing - they put it in inverted commas, notice.
Running a kindergarten for local Muslim children? Some of the other blogs say there were "only a few Muslims in attendence". Here it states that it was "for" local Muslim children. Strange. A christian bible study group for local Muslim children? Are you serious? Have you ever been to Indonesia, let alone a place like Indramayu? Obviously not. Nor has the writer of this blog article.
Dr Rebekka Zakaria, Ratna Bangun and Eti Pangesti were sentenced in 2005, after the court in Indramayu found them guilty to charges brought by the Indonesian Clerics Council of breaching the country's 2002 Child Protection Law.
Can't argue with this.
They were freed on parole at 6am local time and went immediately to be reunited with their families.
This is what happens if you've served time and been apart from your families.
Rebbeka told Open Doors, "These [prison] gates are a university of trust."
I see. Mmm. OK.
She continued, "This is nothing compared with the suffering and persecution faced by others. Compared with the Lord's love and what He has given me, it is worth it."
Nothing factual here, except that she did presumably say this.
Eddie Lyle, CEO of Open Doors UK & Ireland, said "This is wonderful news. Rebekka, Ratna and Eti were an inspiration to me when I visited them; I was profoundly impressed by their courage and commitment."
Irrelevant.
The women of the Christian Church of David's Camp set up a 'Happy Sunday' programme, with Christian songs, games and Bible studies for the children, under the direction of pastor Dr Rebekka, in Eti's home.
Only 104 hits for "Christian Church of David's Camp" on Google - almost every single one of them on Christian blogs, and frequently the same text cut and paste. I get more hits than that when I put my name into Google and I'm nobody. Just thought I'd mention that.
It wasn't in Eti Pangesti's home - not exactly. It was in Babakan Jati elementary school, Sunda (West Java) until December 2004 when the authorities closed it down after complaints that the organizers were giving copies of the bible to the children and Christian t-shirts. This was not only provocative but also in contravention of the original terms of reference for the kindergarten. However, the women continued to run the programme in secret in Eti Pangesti's home in defiance of the decision and now with hardly any of the Muslim children attending anymore.
Songs, games and stories: that's pretty much the kindergarten recipe in Indonesia.
After 18 months, the programme was so popular, there were 40 children attending, but only 10 were from Christian homes.
At what point during the 18 months did these "Bible studies" start? Let me assure you, if it had been on day one, then the kindergarten would have ceased operations on day one. If it had been during the 18th month, then the kindergarten would have ceased operations with immediate effect. The blogger's version of the affair does not state when the 'Bible studies' started. Probably because to stae it would weaken the women's case.
Some of the blogs carrying this story claim that there were only a handful of Muslim children. If 40 out of 50 children were really Muslim children then why were the women teaching 'Bible studies'? Doesn't make even a tiny bit of sense.
The Muslim children attending did so with the full consent of their parents.
Songs, games and stories: that's pretty much the kindergarten recipe in Indonesia. And Christian educators in this country have an excellent reputation for discipline and standards. Private Catholic schools here often have a student roll that is 20% Muslim. These children step out when there are Religion Lessons and study in the library. Nobody anywhere is teaching 'Christianity' or 'Bible studies' to Muslim children. By the same reckoning, no Christian children in this country are being 'taught Islam' in kindergarten, elementary schools, or high schools. And government schools are secular.
However, opposition to the programme resulted in the forced closure of the church building in December 2004 but the three women continued to run the Happy Sunday programme from Eti's home.
Was this a wise move? Was this responsible? Was it legally justified? These ignorant, devious, exuberant women, through their stubborn, anti-social, willfully illegal action, fueled the zeal of the Alliance of the Anti Apostasy Movement - affiliated in no way whatsoever to the Indonesian government. AGAP-aligned militants subsequently stepped up their aggressive campaign to close churches, particularly in West Java. The police already had their hands full with these nasty idiots.
On 13 May 2005, the women were arrested and taken to the police station for questioning. They were accused of breaching the Child Protection Law, Chapter 86, No. 23/2002.
There were video interviews conducted with some of the children and it was quite apparent that the Christian women were attempting to convert the Muslim families to Christianity. This is a huge no no in Indonesia. Just as it is a huge no no for Muslim adults to attempt to convert Christian children. Parents had complained that their children (6,7 and 8 years old) were coming home and singing songs praising Jesus - although, ultimately it was not the parents but a hardline Muslim advocacy group that brought the case against the women.
Throughout the trial, Islamic extremists made murderous threats to the three mothers from both inside and outside the courtroom. Several bus loads of Islamic militants arrived each day, bringing with them a coffin to bury the ladies if they were found innocent.
Islamic extremists are dangerous idiots. Luckily they have no representation in parliament (at least the ones who brought "coffins to bury the ladies if they were found innocent" don't). They have no friends or allies in the police. And no friends in the military. Supporters of Indonesia's trademark moderate brand of Islam have these important facts to be thankful for.
These imbeciles turning up in "bus loads" day after day are the Indonesian equivalent of Europe's hardcore neo-nazi skinheads.
Throughout their imprisonment, the ladies have remained powerful witnesses for their Christian faith.
Irrelevant.
They transformed the prison by cleaning washrooms and toilets, scrubbing cells, working on the garden and even painting in bright yellow and blue the walls of the room they used for church meetings.
Irrelevant. "Cleaning washrooms and toilets, scrubbing cells, working on the garden" are all standard prisoner duties. They had church meetings in prison. Were you surprised by this robbie?
Within the women's section, quarrelling was reduced and because of Rebekka, Ratna and Eti's calming influence the guards overruled prison protocol and allowed each woman to have her own knife and spoon in their cell.
Says who? This is like tabloid journalism. Anyone from the prison give a quote to substantiate this. LOL. Gotta love this kind of journalism.
The case of these ladies sparked international concern among the Christian community resulting in a global letter writing campaign and prayer vigils.
It did indeed.
Eddie concluded, "Elsewhere in the world, in countries such as North Korea and Eritrea, thousands of Christians remain unjustly imprisoned for their faith.
They were not imprisoned "for their faith".
"As with any family we experience rights and responsibilities, and our responsibility as the Christian brothers and sisters of those in prison, is to continue serving and encouraging them through our prayers and practical support."
And good luck to them, I say.
Your assertions against mine I suppose. Who knows more about the reality of Indonesia? I am a Christian living here who holds no candle for Islam. And you are a Christian living in Scotland who makes no secret of the axe you grind against Islam and who - on this thread - appears to be trying to say that Indonesia is much of a muchness with Saudi Arabia and the Taliban..
25 May 09
Originally posted by FMFyes it does seem to be rather sensationalistic in nature, and i harbor a sneaking suspicion that they knew exactly what they were doing. its not my assertions FMF, but those of the website that as you state, I, 'plucked', the story from.
You've plucked this story off a fanatical Chrtistian blog. So... what? It's true then until proven otherwise?
This story is in fact splashed across several fanatical Christian blogs.
Let's use the original one you linked us to rather than the one above which is short on facts and ripe with emotional assertions passed off as facts.
http://www.opendoorsuk ...[text shortened]... abia and the Taliban..
I actually had the pleasure of entertaining a couple from Indonesia once, she was a school teacher at one point and i was amazed at just how liberal a majority Islamic state could be. She had stories of teenage pregnancies etc etc even among the Muslim girls, such would not be tolerated, in a state, such as Pakistan. Poor guy, we took them to Glen Coe a place of natural beauty and he was freezing the whole time!
but at least you and I are talking, at least on civil grounds, which is at least something positive to have arisen from the whole episode 🙂
25 May 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThey will dine out on the back of this for the rest of their born days. And certain swathes of the thriving christian communities will lap it up. Others will look on and say there's more than one way to boil an egg.
i harbor a sneaking suspicion that they knew exactly what they were doing.
25 May 09
Originally posted by FMFThis sort of caricaturing is necessary to Christianity. It's been going on since the Crusades. Don't expect the more conservative Christians to lighten up in the face of logic.
They will dine out on the back of this for the rest of their born days. And certain swathes of the thriving christian communities will lap it up. Others will look on and say there's more than one way to boil an egg.
As for robbie ... he means well. But I think he's been snared.