12 Mar 05
Originally posted by darvlay
[b]The Word of God says that the grace of God has been revealed to all men. God has given each person a concsience. In some way or another God has revealed himself to mankind.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Jesus has paid the price. The gift of God is salvation to all those who believe.
These two statements don't fo ...[text shortened]... ter know about Jesus Christ... how can you say that with 100% confidence??? That's outrageous![/b]
12 Mar 05
Originally posted by KellyJayCan he create that rock?
Anything that can be done, God can do. As it has been pointed out
before by others, no one no matter how good they are at drawing
can draw a square circle, it isn't a circle if it is square. The same with
the stupid rock question and God.
Kelly
No.
Not powerful.
13 Mar 05
Originally posted by Brother EdwinGo find someone who can make a better case for atheism, because if everyone subscribed to your arguments, it would be an easy matter to convert everyone.
Can he create that rock?
No.
Not powerful.
You're dogmatically saying that because God cannot fail, He is not all-powerful. Slow down and listen to yourself.
God CANNOT make a rock that He can't lift because He is ALL-POWERFUL. Only a weak god could make a rock he couldn't lift.
13 Mar 05
Originally posted by Jay PeateaNeither. Those aren't the only premises. If God had alloted NO time for the man to be forgiven, THEN He would be a hypocrite. However, the rich MAN had at least enough time to become a man, and likely more. He had all of that time to repent and instead denied God for money. If God didn't punish that man, what kind of example would He set for the rest of us? Where would the justice be? God has different laws than us. Different punishments. Does that mean He is less loving? Of course not! We wouldn't be given a chance in the first place if He was less loving. It means He is equally JUST. He can't be less Just to be more loving because He is infinitely both.
Here is the rest of the discussion with darfius in case you missed it:-
..............................................................................................
With regards to free will, it is not asking for it and then disregarding it. The rich man didn't ask for it, it was handed to him by god. So if we say that god then respects his wishe ...[text shortened]... ----------------------------
So tell me is god a hypocrite or is christain doctrine wrong ?
13 Mar 05
Originally posted by Brother EdwinLet's break this down. You're saying god cannot be omnipotent because he is unable of doing something self defeating.
Let me put it to you simple. The rock is X.
Can he create X?
No.
He is not all powerful.
Thusly, by definition, nothing can be omnipotent.
Thusly, I can and should read your statement to read, "God is not omnipotent because nothing is omnipotent".
Which really breaks down to, "I can not accept that a being of such power could exist".
While I respect that decision, your point here is baseless my friend. By definition, all you are saying is that omnipotence is paradoxal and that you are unwilling to accept such a thing that is untangible and uncalculable. Again, a fine and logical conclusion, but just as unproovable.
Any "omni" trait is, by concept, beyond understanding. It is an infinite equation, and as such can be understood in theory only. Because the theory is uncalcualable does not dismiss the possiblity. The inablity to comprehend does nothing to refute the concept.
As always, we are back to square one here. Do you accept that which you cannot perceive or deny it? Just a matter of preference.
Best Regards,
Omnislash (the proovable "omni"😉
13 Mar 05
Originally posted by Jay PeateaWhether a man is rich or poor, he has the issues. He did not ask to be rich or poor. It was GOD that decides those issues. With whatever a man is given he still has to abide by those boundries that GOD has set in place. If a man chooses to be an unbeliever, he is bound by those Laws that GOD has set in place for unbelievers. The penalty for being an unbeliever is going to hell. No man is forced to be an unbeliever or believer, we all have to chose, what road of life we choose.
Here is the rest of the discussion with darfius in case you missed it:-
..............................................................................................
With regards to free will, it is not asking for it and then disregarding it. The rich man didn't ask for it, it was handed to him by god. So if we say that god then respects his wishe ...[text shortened]... ----------------------------
So tell me is god a hypocrite or is christain doctrine wrong ?
When GOD created man, HE gave man free will. Man choose not to live in GOD'S will. When man made that choice, he then still had to adbide by the laws, thatt were but in place for man's disobediance.
Man cannot do anything for himself regardless of whatever choice that he makes. He still has to adbide by those laws that were put in place to deal with those choices. Go back and read again the passeges that you are speaking about. Thae rich man realized once he had found himself in hell, that he had made some wrong choices. Not only that, he did not blame GOD for his condition, he understood it.
Yes man can change his mind, from doing wrong, to doing right. But there is a cost. And JESUS CHRIST paid that cost. All men are on that road of sin. We travel that road until we hit that great stone in the road (JESUS CHRIST). If a man chooses to still travel the road of unrighteousness. He must pay that cost, that has been set in that law, that GOD has given for unrighteousness.
GOD is willing and ready to give each man forgiveness. GOD is willing and ready to end the war between man and GOD. GOD is ready and willing to forgive and forget all the wrong that man has done. But it is up to man to accept GOD'S terms. And man must accept GOD'S terms. What are those terms? Acceptting JESUS CHRIST, as man's savior. Committing his life to CHRIST, and obeying THE WORD.
There is no way arround it. There is no forgiveness in the next life. You cannot die and pray yourself into heaven. As the rich man was told, there is a wide gulf between heaven and hell. Just as there is a wide gulf between right and wrong.
There only one way into heaven, and that is through CHRIST and only through CHRIST.
13 Mar 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerNow you just sound silly !
[b] What about the hundreds of millions of people around the world who will never see a Bible or know what 'Jesus' is?
The Word of God says that the grace of God has been revealed to all men. God has given each person a concsience. In some way or another God has revealed himself to mankind.
Do they deserve eternal damnation? Has God done ...[text shortened]... of God. But Jesus has paid the price. The gift of God is salvation to all those who believe.
Your "God" knows the past present, present and future but still diliberately creates people who he will send to Hell. Since he knows that they will not be saved and he still creates them. Therefore he must be EVIL.
And you are a follower of this evil god ??
Please show me where historically Jesus/God was "revealed" in the Americas . Surely such an event would be chronicled in many ancient civilations.
Your god condemned all those people to eternal damnation (by your words).
Of course your god conspired with Satan (in the book of Job) to create great suffering just to prove a point.
As I said, your god is EVIL and you are helping spread the evil.
In Love there is Life (but not in your religion)
Angela
13 Mar 05
Originally posted by caissad4Tell me, does God make those people deny Him or does He simply know they will? Now, with that said, if He created no one who would deny Him, how would people come to Him in the first place? If everyone was a Christian, how would a child growing up know that it was proper? It would just be the norm. Wouldn't he likely rebel against that norm? What if he never came back? Without Christians and bad people, the fencesitters would have no way of comparing and seeing what was clearly the right way to be.
Now you just sound silly !
Your "God" knows the past present, present and future but still diliberately creates people who he will send to Hell. Since he knows that they will not be saved and he still creates them. Therefore he must be EVIL.
And you are a follower of this evil god ??
Please show me where historically Jesus/God was "revealed" in the A ...[text shortened]... you are helping spread the evil.
In Love there is Life (but not in your religion)
Angela
My Lord Jesus was revealed to the Americas in the form of missionaries. Before that, they were revealed in the fact of their existence. If they followed their conscience in a manner as righteously as they could, God would allow them to have a choice in Judgement day. If they were evil to begin with, He will not. Paul says those who know the Law are judged by the Law, those who do not know the Law (Jesus Christ), are not judged by the Law, but by their conscience.
God did not conspire with Satan against Job. He simply knew Job had incredibly strong faith, and that his faith would be a blow to Satan. Satan thought it would be an easy matter to damn the souls of the children God loved, but Job proved otherwise, and what you forgot to mention is that at the end, God replaced all of what Job lost and gave him more.
13 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusGod did worse than conspire, according to the account of Job. He played a deadly game of "triple-dogg dare" with Satan. God showed about as much moral integrity as a seedy gambler in Las Vegas. God thought it was just fine to kill all of Job's family on a dare, even though they had done nothing to deserve such a fate.
Tell me, does God make those people deny Him or does He simply know they will? Now, with that said, if He created no one who would deny Him, how would people come to Him in the first place? If everyone was a Christian, how would a child growing up know that it was proper? It would just be the norm. Wouldn't he likely rebel against that norm? What if he ...[text shortened]... you forgot to mention is that at the end, God replaced all of what Job lost and gave him more.
13 Mar 05
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemTell me, was Job's family still dead at the end of Job? When you answer that, you should let your hatred go and realize God was showing how much He loved Job. When you love someone, do you brag about them or keep them hidden?
God did worse than conspire, according to the account of Job. He played a deadly game of "triple-dogg dare" with Satan. God showed about as much moral integrity as a seedy gambler in Las Vegas. God thought it was just fine to kill all of Job's family on a dare, even though they had done nothing to deserve such a fate.
13 Mar 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101I'm still not convinced by what either yourself or Darius posted, So I'll agree to disagree with you both and say no more on this subject.
Whether a man is rich or poor, he has the issues. He did not ask to be rich or poor. It was GOD that decides those issues. With whatever a man is given he still has to abide by those boundries that GOD has set in place. If a man chooses to be an unbeliever, he is bound by those Laws that GOD has set in place for unbelievers. The penalty for being an un ...[text shortened]... nd wrong.
There only one way into heaven, and that is through CHRIST and only through CHRIST.
14 Mar 05
Originally posted by Joe FistI just wanted to add my 2 cents. I think that people need to understand the love of God and that He would that none go to hell. Matthew 18:7 through 14 is good proof of this and also the value God
[b] The agnostic and the christan CAN co-exist peacefully. As a matter of fact as christians we are called to love our neighbors, not condemn them. Even Jesus associated himself with sinners, but yet He was without sin nor did He condone it. He gave Himself up for nonbelievers. Christ is our salvation. For God did not send his Son into the world to con ...[text shortened]... ason I cannot find the logical consistency, empirical adequacy, or experiential relevance in it.
puts on man Luke 12:6:7 it reads as follows Are not 5 sparrows sold for 2 cents?and yet not one of them is forgotten before God. Indeed the very hairs of your head are all numbered.Do not fear you are of more value than many sparrows!!! I would not pretend to really no a rightous path. I always try to look at it from the stand point that if not for the grace of God go I. I think that if Christians truly believe what Christ said then we can & must co-exsist with non-Christians. We Christians are commanded to love our neighbors as ourself and to love God and in doing this we fufill God's law. My sugestion for non-Christians is to read the bible and the words of Christ for themselves and decide if what you read is total lunacy or not. menace71 (Manny)
14 Mar 05
Originally posted by menace71Thank you for your kind advice. I think you will find that most of us non-Christians who post to this forum have read the Bible. And indeed, I can tell you that it is so full of contradictions, illogicalities, miracles, absurdities, death, slaughter, rape, incest and other terrible crimes, that you can be assured that I believe that it is total lunacy.
My sugestion for non-Christians is to read the bible and the words of Christ for themselves and decide if what you read is total lunacy or not. menace71 (Manny) [/b]
Good word that 'lunacy', it comes from the superstition that madness was caused by the phases of the moon...I haven't used it in ages. Thank you for reminding me of its existence. 🙂
15 Mar 05
!!!Originally posted by MaustrauserNo problem sir. Enjoy reading everyone's post here at RHP. I think it is great that people can express their views here. I try to be a civil person even if another does not agree with my views. I think how can I understand others unless I know where they are coming from. Yeah lunacy nice word!!!!LOL Menace71 (Manny)
Thank you for your kind advice. I think you will find that most of us non-Christians who post to this forum have read the Bible. And indeed, I can tell you that it is so full of contradictions, illogicalities, miracles, absurdities, death, slaughter, rape, incest and other terrible crimes, that you can be assured that I believe that it is total luna ...[text shortened]... ases of the moon...I haven't used it in ages. Thank you for reminding me of its existence. 🙂