Hiding from God

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't know what you mean by 'not relevant' in this context.

I agree that ThinkOfOne was definitely over generalizing in his opening post when he said:
[b]Thus "salvation by grace" Christianity is a subconcious means of "hiding from God."
As it is clearly incorrect and unfair to claim that all "salvation by grace" Christians are motivated in th ...[text shortened]... ficant number of atheists were reacting to bad experiences with religion in thier past.[/b]

You may have been right about the Atheist issue , but at least I will enter into a discussion about it with you. Any challenge to ToO is seen as a lie or distortion. If you watch him he has a particular way of turning things around.

Also , see my counter to ToO on the other thread. Watch his reaction. I know I have a valid point over there. He will be too proud to admit it though. He will probably see it as an "excuse" for continuing in sin or "hiding".

Originally posted by knightmeister
You may have been right about the Atheist issue , but at least I will enter into a discussion about it with you. Any challenge to ToO is seen as a lie or distortion. If you watch him he has a particular way of turning things around.

Also , see my counter to ToO on the other thread. Watch his reaction. I know I have a valid point over there. He wi ...[text shortened]... o admit it though. He will probably see it as an "excuse" for continuing in sin or "hiding".

Exactly, ToO's intent is ever to accuse Christians of being hypocrites, i.e., sayers and not doers of the word, excusing their sins, and hiding from the Truth, etc. There is a barely disguised contempt for those who profess faith in Christ behind every ToO post. Thus, in this thread his linking of belief in salvation by grace with subsequent hypocritical behavior - as if the two were inextricably linked. But what makes a Christian but the grace of God? What is a Christian but one who relies upon the grace of God? Yet ToO wants us to think that belief in and reliance upon the grace of God is somehow a doorway to hypocrisy (i.e., freedom to sin). What a lie! It is quite revealing that ToO and Rajk, two of the biggest proponents of salvation by righteous living, have each been caught calling others insulting names in these forums. 😀 What a hoot! Only salvation by grace produces hearts of flesh rather than hearts of stone (Ezekiel 36:26). Only salvation by grace actually succeeds in making one truly righteous.

Remember, my friend, if God is with us, who can be against us? Not even ToO and Rajk can be against us. All things work together for good to those who love God, who are the called according to his purpose (Rom. 8:28).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
... It is quite revealing that ToO and Rajk, two of the biggest proponents of salvation by righteous living, have each been caught calling others insulting names in these forums. ....

Maybe ... but I think its worse to deceive the innocent with your sweet honey-coated lies of guaranteed salvation than to tell the truth (as Christ did) with harsh words of the importance of good works, of loving thy neighbour as thyself and of giving to the poor.... these are not as optional as you think.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Perhaps you should read the original post. The key point is the freedom from the feeling of condemnation by claiming "salvation by grace". It is in this feeling of security that they hide.

I read the original post.

It does not matter where ANYONE tries to hide.

"And there is no creature that is not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we are to give our account." (Hebrews 4:13)

Then again if you reject the book of Hebrews out of the New Testament, then you might not have known that.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me...If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words"

When one sins one is not keeping the commandments of Jesus. One is not keeping His words. One is breaki ...[text shortened]... s so much easier to attack when you characterize it as "perfectionism", isn't it?[/b]

If you are saying that a man who lives a life of truth and love 99% of the time is in the same catagory as a man who sins his brains out recklessly every day then , yes , that's perfectionism. For you the occasional stumble in following Jesus or the occasional sin is just not good enough - that's perfectionism. For you it's not enough to try to be perfect , you have to BE perfect and never sin.

The definition of perfectionsim is the lack of acceptance of anything other than 100% success. This is exactly what you are suggesting. You would take a man like Bono (for example) who lives and breaths truth , compassion for the poor , and fights like mad for justice and say he is not following Jesus's commandments because he maybe has moments when he likes a drink or has an argument with his wife?

To use Bono as an example , you can see from his music and what he does that his heart is in the right place. You can hear from the music that he has compassion for the poor and hates injustice. He has a real heart of love for people. But he's also no saint. Your perfectionist theology would say that he is not keeping the words of Jesus?

A perfectionist is someone who cannot accept their faillings and feels compelled to always achieve 100% . A realist is someone who tries to achieve 100% but doesn't feel excessively guilty with 99%.

At the particular moment when a man sins he is not keeping the words of Jesus , but then that would be taking that specific moment and over exaggerating it beyond all importance. If you want to judge whether a man is a good driver or not do you watch him drive for some time or just for that brief moment when he might make a mistake?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Maybe ... but I think its worse to deceive the innocent with your sweet honey-coated lies of guaranteed salvation than to tell the truth (as Christ did) with harsh words of the importance of good works, of loving thy neighbour as thyself and of giving to the poor.... these are not as optional as you think.

This betrays your complete misunderstanding of St Paul et al. Look at what St Paul actually said rather than what you think he said and ask yourself if he really really thought that good works were an "optional extra"?

Originally posted by knightmeister
This betrays your complete misunderstanding of St Paul et al. Look at what St Paul actually said rather than what you think he said and ask yourself if he really really thought that good works were an "optional extra"?

Youre right. Good works are not optional. Its an essential part of the road to salvation.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Youre right. Good works are not optional. Its an essential part of the road to salvation.

Agreed. So does salvation via grace mean that works are not essential somehow? Paul taught that from grace comes works and that the two essentially go hand in hand. So what's your problem here?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Agreed. So does salvation via grace mean that works are not essential somehow? Paul taught that from grace comes works and that the two essentially go hand in hand. So what's your problem here?

Skim through the thread "Jaywill and Rajk999's discussion" and you will understand. In a nutshell there are some who believe that once 'born again' you are immediately saved and regardless of your works your salvation is guaranteed. I disagree ... baptism, belief and the whole 'born again' process is the start of the road to salvation (not the end), and your works subsequent to that must be good works for you to gain salvation. Please dont argue that all 'born again' Christians do good works.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Maybe you misunderstood my post?

I don't think so, buut it is possible.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Agreed. So does salvation via grace mean that works are not essential somehow? Paul taught that from grace comes works and that the two essentially go hand in hand. So what's your problem here?

So how was the thief on the vross saved? He had no time to "do any good works", yet he was saved.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
So how was the thief on the vross saved? He had no time to "do any good works", yet he was saved.

Come on Pinky .. you should know better than to try that. There are exceptions to every rule, and exception cannot void the rule. Was the thief on the cross baptised? Probably not. Does that mean baptism is not important ? Remember Christ can make any exception to His rule. you and I cant.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Maybe ... but I think its worse to deceive the innocent with your sweet honey-coated lies of guaranteed salvation than to tell the truth (as Christ did) with harsh words of the importance of good works, of loving thy neighbour as thyself and of giving to the poor.... these are not as optional as you think.

Do you think God is reliable or not?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Do you think God is reliable or not?

Totally, abosolutely and completely reliable.

On Page 1 of this thread ToO quoted this from the mouth of Jesus :

John 14:21-24
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words

I have to wonder sometimes if you and your fellow believers really understand passages like this, even though its is so crystal clear.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Totally, abosolutely and completely reliable.

If God is "totally, absolutely and completely reliable", then why don't you trust in him?