Hell

Originally posted by no1marauder
And if we MUST come to him on HIS terms or die (because that is the rule He made), what part is "free will"? The gun is at your head.

Empty the cup, whodey.[/b]

If you want something that I possess then you must come to me and ask me for it. Either that or you must try to steal it from me.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Is there sin i.e. disobedience to God in Heaven?

There is record of it via Lucifers fall.

Originally posted by whodey
Sure it can. Have you never been stolen from? Have you never been lied to simply so someone could manipulate you into doing something that you otherwise would not have done had you known the truth? Really that is what the serpant did to Eve was it not? He was manipulating and thus violating her free will by hiding the truth via deception.

How can we "deceive" or "manipulate" God so as to violate his free will (that's what you said in your post)?

And if Eve's free will was violated by the serpent, why did your God punish her?

Originally posted by whodey
There is record of it via Lucifers fall.

Stop dodging. Will there be sin i.e. disobedience to God in Heaven after the Last Judgment?

Originally posted by whodey
If you want something that I possess then you must come to me and ask me for it. Either that or you must try to steal it from me.

Your life is not your own?

Originally posted by no1marauder
How can we "deceive" or "manipulate" God so as to violate his free will (that's what you said in your post)?

And if Eve's free will was violated by the serpent, why did your God punish her?

That's just it, we cannot decieve nor manipulate God to do anything. Therefore, if we want something from him such as love/life then we will have to go to the source and ask on his terms, not ours. However, if we decide we do not like the terms we are free to go our own way.

So what if Eve was decieved, Lucifer was also decieved but his deception came in the form of self deception. However, what is at the source of this deception? Is it not a distrust of some sort about what God has said? Is it thinking that God is trying to hold us back from something wonderful or great he does not want us to know about? Is it not questioning whether God is really loving in that maybe he is not looking out for what is best for us?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Your life is not your own?

Unless it is given to you.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Stop dodging. Will there be sin i.e. disobedience to God in Heaven after the Last Judgment?

Who is dodging? I am simply showing that it has been shown to be possible. As far as if it will happen again it appears it will not according to scripture. Perhaps this is the testing ground for those who wish to walk in faith with the God they have chosen to love for the rest of eternity. His ultimate goal is creation minus sin and suffering. Is this not the loving thing to do?

Originally posted by whodey
That's just it, we cannot decieve nor manipulate God to do anything. Therefore, if we want something from him such as love/life then we will have to go to the source and ask on his terms, not ours. However, if we decide we do not like the terms we are free to go our own way.

So what if Eve was decieved, Lucifer was also decieved but his deception came i ...[text shortened]... oning whether God is really loving in that maybe he is not looking out for what is best for us?

Whatever happened to this "God of Love" BS? If we express any doubts concerning His Pettiness he feels it's perfectly OK to threaten us with eternal punishment? He doesn't "let us go on our way" either; he eternally punishes us. See the title of the thread.

Originally posted by whodey
Who is dodging? I am simply showing that it has been shown to be possible. As far as if it will happen again it appears it will not according to scripture. Perhaps this is the testing ground for those who wish to walk in faith with the God they have chosen to love for the rest of eternity.

But they've ALL failed the test. They have all sinned! How will they not sin in Heaven? What will change?

Originally posted by whodey
At the heart of the matter is free will. God has free will as do we.

I think it is logically impossible for your conceptual god to have free will.

Why?
Free will is only available to temporal beings existing on a linear time line without knowledge of the future.

God would be an eternal being outside of a linear time line with knowledge of everything. There's simply no choices to be made without linear time and ignorance.

Consequently, that is also why I would not have free will if I knew with certainty what a god would judge me for when I die. Poor decision making skills are not the same as free will.

Luckily, monotheistic religions are as logically ridiculous as the polytheistic ones, so it really doesn't matter.
You die when you die and leave this little linear experiment.
Whatever happens next, happens, and truly no one knows.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Whatever happened to this "God of Love" BS? If we express any doubts concerning His Pettiness he feels it's perfectly OK to threaten us with eternal punishment? He doesn't "let us go on our way" either; he eternally punishes us. See the title of the thread.

But "hell" is simply seperation from the source of love/life which is God. You call it punishment as where I call it simply a matter of fact if you are seperated from him.

Originally posted by whodey
But "hell" is simply seperation from the source of love/life which is God. You call it punishment as where I call it simply a matter of fact if you are seperated from him.

Where's the Scripture that supports that interpretation?

Originally posted by mdhall
I think it is logically impossible for your conceptual god to have free will.

Why?
Free will is only available to temporal beings existing on a linear time line without knowledge of the future.

God would be an eternal being outside of a linear time line with knowledge of everything. There's simply no choices to be made without linear time and ignoranc eave this little linear experiment.
Whatever happens next, happens, and truly no one knows.

There are so many illogical conclusions here that I do not know where to begin. First of all you say that one needs to be ignorant of an outcome in order to make a choice for a particular intervention for a desired outcome. I don't see the logic here. I can make a decision even though I may know the outcome. I view God's decision making as best case scenerio decision making because he does knows everything. At best you could say that his best decision was the only logical decision because he only decides on what is best for creation because he is a God of love. His driving force was grounded in love thus he opened himself up and the rest of creation to the potential for rejection/sin/suffering. For a God of love, the best case scenerio is to allow for loving relationships despite the negative consequences and potential for pain and suffering just as we do in our own lives. He then had a game plan to erradicate sin/suffering form his creation after we have all made our respective decisions for or against him. Sin was then erradicated through the cross and/or hell.

Other scenerios I can think of were for him to create us and force us to serve him and/or not create us at all. Neither of these options, in my opinion, were as good as the first.

Secondly, you are attempting to understand a concept for which you have no point of reference. This concept is regarding God's existence outside of space and time. Who can fathom it? Who knows what it is like? Such speculations are purely speculative.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Where's the Scripture that supports that interpretation?

In 1 John 4:8 we see that God is love. In Genesis we see that life sprang from God directly. Thus he is seen scripturally as a God of love/life.

In terms of hell being a punishment, I conceed that to be without love/life one is tormented and punished. However, without God how can this be avoided when one is seperated completly from the source of life/love?