Hell

@sonship said
Govett on the chapter heading"The immortality of the soul or endless existence of All Men" -
Govett proposes how he would go about to solve the problem of what the Bible teaches related to the phrases.

[quote] That man's soul is immortal, may be certainly proved by Scripture. And yet, perhaps, the failing to find any passage of Scripture which directly asserts ...[text shortened]... ] [Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades] [/b] Robert Govett, Shoettle Publishers, pgs. 149,150]

Congrats on the spelling of Govett.

😀

@rajk999 said
Well lets take this one step at a time. You already acknowledged that there is no reference in the bible to an immortal soul.
Next, there is no reference in the bible from Jesus Christ about eternal torment or even torment of any kind. If there is please provide the reference.
Next, a lake of fire is a lake of fire. It burns and destroys.
As for 'worm that never dies', the ...[text shortened]... ls me that you are grasping at straws.

Are all your firm doctrines based on vague bible passages?

So you believe that some souls will be destroyed in the fire, and that hell is the fire that destroys these souls, yes?

Matthew 25:46:
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
This is confirmed in the OT:

Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

(all quotes ESV)

This is also noteworthy:

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Is eternal destruction indicates that the destruction is an on-going act; it is a person being destroyed,. Lots of scholars argue that this does not include destruction necessarily.

@philokalia said
So you believe that some souls will be destroyed in the fire, and that hell is the fire that destroys these souls, yes?

Matthew 25:46:
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
This is confirmed in the OT:

Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go out a ...[text shortened]... being destroyed,. Lots of scholars argue that this does not include destruction necessarily.

Scholars argue that destruction is not destruction.
Are these the scholars you have up on a pedestal?

@Rajk999

Scholars argue that destruction is not destruction.
Are these the scholars you have up on a pedestal?

I never saw anybody argue that "destruction is not destruction".

If you could get yourself off of the pedestal for once, somebody might be able to talk to you.

Is this Christian destroyed and SAVED or destroyed and not saved ?

"In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you and my spirit have been assembled, with the power our Lord Jesus, To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord." (1 Cor. 5:4,5)

His flesh - destroyed because of discipline.
His spirit - SAVED on the day of the Lord.

Is this Christian brother destroyed and not saved or destroyed and saved ?

In the NT "the flesh" often means the old man, the fallen old man inherited from Adam.

I ask any Christian here to consider. Let us say that here I am perhaps a Christian for years but I like fornication. I read that a fornicator will not inherit the kingdom of God in the New Testament but I still have that lifestyle. I do not seek the Lord's grace to overcome. Sometimes I may be afraid to meet the Lord. Other times it is just so much fun I am not concerned.

Now when Jesus comes back not only will I not be rewarded to reign with Him in the kingdom. Something in my being will be DESTROYED.

I said, not only am I in danger of not inheriting the kingdom of God. I am in danger of having my unrepentant life style (something left in my soul) will be DESTROYED.

If you do not think Christ can discipline His redeemed saved people AFTER His second coming, you have more faith then I do.
He who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption of the flesh is what Paul wrote to the churches in Galatia.

Look. Here the Apostle John is writing to Christians. He is writing to those for whom the question of eternal life has already been solved in the affirmative. Look what he warns of concerning meeting Jesus when He comes.

"And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from HIm at His coming." (1 John 2:28 Recovery Version)

When Jesus comes we Christians should have BOLDNESS before Him. We should be exaltant, bold, unafraid, even rejoicing in ecstasy.

But we also could be (as those with eternal life mind you) be "PUT TO SHAME FROM HIM" .

Here it does not mean simply the FEELING of shame. It is not a warning that we may just not have boldness. It is a warning that He could PUT TO SHAME FROM HIM. That means discipline. That means temporary dismissal away from His presence. It is not merely that we may shrink away with no boldness. It is that He may PUT the Christian away - to shame FROM Him. (temporarily). It is not just a matter of feelings but of being dealt with by the Lord.

Only a few translations are faithful to this. 1 John 2:28

Douay-Rheims Bible

And now, little children, abide in him, that when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be confounded by him at his coming.

Darby Bible Translation

And now, children, abide in him, that if he be manifested we may have boldness, and not be put to shame from before him at his coming.

The pronoun “He” in the phrase “He is manifested,” according to the context, must refer to the Son. This understanding is supported by the phrase “at His coming,” found at the end of the verse. Here John is saying that if the Son is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming.

In verse 28 John says that if we abide in Him, “we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming.” The Greek words translated “at His coming” literally mean “in His presence” (parousia). John's word about not being put to shame indicates that some believers who do not abide in the Lord (that is, do not remain in the fellowship of the divine life according to pure faith in Christ's Person), but are led astray by the heretical teachings concerning Christ (v. 26), will be punished by being put to shame from Him, from His glorious parousia.

A Charge to All Believers
In 2:28 John says, “And now, little children, abide in Him, that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming.” This word is addressed to the “little children,” that is, to all the believers (2:1). This charge begins (2:28), continues (3:6), and ends (3:24) with “abide in Him.” If we abide in Him, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming, at His parousia. This means that at His coming back we shall not be put to shame from His glory. But if we do not abide in the Triune God, continually living the divine life, then at the Lord's coming back we shall suffer shame, which will be a kind of discipline exercised upon us. Then we shall be kept away from His glory.

All from Life Study of First John by Witness Lee

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=13D8CE01C0

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Scholars argue that destruction is not destruction.
Are these the scholars you have up on a pedestal?

I never saw anybody argue that "destruction is not destruction".

If you could get yourself off of the pedestal for once, somebody might be able to talk to you.

Is this Christian destroyed and SAVED or destroyed and not saved ?

[b ...[text shortened]... n the day of the Lord.

Is this Christian brother destroyed and not saved or destroyed and saved ?

Paul identified 3 categories of saved, born-again Christian Saints
1. The righteous ones who do good works - gets rewards and eternal life
2. The ones who do no good works - no rewards but still given eternal life
3. Evil ones who defile themselves - these God will destroy.

Its simple. Twist the teachings of Paul if you like.

@Rajk999

You are not answering the question. You are evading the direct question -

Is this Christian brother destroyed and not saved or destroyed and saved ?

So I will answer. The Christian in First Corinthians 5 is partly destroyed but is saved.
There is no argument about it, PERIOD.

"In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you and my spirit have been assembled, with the power our Lord Jesus, To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord." (1 Cor. 5:4,5)

His flesh - destroyed because of discipline.
His spirit - SAVED on the day of the Lord.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

You are not answering the question. You are evading the direct question -

Is this Christian brother destroyed and not saved or destroyed and saved ?

So I will answer. The Christian in First Corinthians 5 is partly destroyed but is saved.
There is no argument about it, PERIOD.

[b] "In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you ...[text shortened]...

His flesh - destroyed because of discipline.
His spirit - SAVED on the day of the Lord.

As Paul said, there are some Christians that fall into that category. Some Christians sin and are punished in whatever way God sees fit, and they still get eternal life. There is another group who God has judged to be evil and these are destroyed. If you want to believe that 'destruction of the flesh' is the same a 'destroyed' then thats your problem. As Paul states in several other passages they have no inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ, neither do they have any inheritance in the Kingdom of God. They are destroyed. You enjoy twisting the bible, so carry on.

@philokalia said
So you believe that some souls will be destroyed in the fire, and that hell is the fire that destroys these souls, yes?

Matthew 25:46:
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
This is confirmed in the OT:

Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go out a ...[text shortened]... being destroyed,. Lots of scholars argue that this does not include destruction necessarily.

If the act of destroying does not include destruction, then what kind of "destroying" is it, exactly?

@rajk999 said
Scholars argue that destruction is not destruction.
Are these the scholars you have up on a pedestal?

Destruction means different things in English. Why would you think Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew wouldn't be equally nuanced.

There are references to eternal torment, flames going unquenched, and the worm that does not die. The symmetry to that is eternal life for those saved.

@suzianne said
If the act of destroying does not include destruction, then what kind of "destroying" is it, exactly?

The ongoing process of being destroyed.

Check out the Greek

https://biblehub.com/greek/3639.htm

So you reject the concept of hell, and an eternal hell? What is your stance?

@Rajk999

As Paul said, there are some Christians that fall into that category. Some Christians sin and are punished in whatever way God sees fit, and they still get eternal life.

They still "get eternal life" is a phrase I don't like.
This life is in His Son - to have the Son is the have the eternal life.

You still think of eternal life as something apart from Christ given as a prize in addition. To have Christ is to have the eternal life - and that from the moment you received Him on unto eternity.

" ... God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; and he who does not have the Son of God does not have the eternal life."

Sometimes when I am loving the Lord Jesus in prayer I call Him "Eternity". Sometimes in adoration of the Father I simply address Him lovingly as "Eternity".

There is another group who God has judged to be evil and these are destroyed. If you want to believe that 'destruction of the flesh' is the same a 'destroyed' then that's your problem.

There is no "problem" with believing what Paul wrote.

The brothers fallen Adamic way of living is destroyed. His spirit is saved on the day of the Lord.

What God prefers is the we believe that we have been crucified with Christ so that the old fleshy way of living is crossed out, buried with Christ and we are raised to walk in newness of life.

That is faith and voluntary. God is faithful to show that we can put to death the practices of the body through the Holy Spirit.

But if not in faith and voluntarily before the kingdom age what we did not commit to the cross He will destroy at the judgment seat of Christ. That is to suffer loss but to be saved.

There is NO category of Christians who receive Jesus Christ and perish forever being destroyed spirit, soul, and body. There is NO kind of Christian Once saved is afterwards UNSAVED as to eternal life.

There is no Christian once BORN of God who is afterwards punished forever by being REVERSED in that birth or unborn of God.