@secondson said
You obviously don't understand what "goodness" means relative to the context of this forum with regards to spirituality.

I certainly know what goodness is with regards to spirituality and the interaction of human spirits. Whether or not it aligns with your take on "goodness" as seen through your religious prism is not of great concern to me, although I will read what you have to say.

@secondson said
You may water down the term goodness to simply being good, but a true perspective relative to things spiritual means measuring up to a standard of perfection unobtainable by mere mortals.

The only goodness in play is that demonstrated by what you call "mere mortals". Morality and right and wrong and goodness etc. lies purely in the realm of human interactions and affects or involves nothing else.

@divegeester said
It has been claimed in this forum by several Christians, including yourself if I’m not mistaken, that a person can simply choose to believe in God. How a fallen, evil to the core, heart-turned-away, person can possibly “choose” to believe without supernatural intervention is beyond my understanding of scripture and salvation doctrine.

God provides the alternative, no ...[text shortened]... forementioned Christians, yes goodness can therefore come from man in making that choice unassisted.

"It has been claimed in this forum by several Christians, including yourself if I’m not mistaken, that a person can simply choose to believe in God."

What do you mean "believe in God"? Do you mean 'believe God' or believe in the existence of God?

Are you a Calvinist and believe the doctrine of "total depravity", and believe a man cannot choose to believe (in) God until and unless God supernaturally causes him to believe?

That is unbiblical nonsense. The fall of man does not mean he is incapable of choice, only that he is separated from God by sin.

The ideological view that man is incapable of choosing to believe in God without supernatural intervention makes God a monster in that He has then consigned those He hasn't chosen to believe to hopelessness and eternal destruction.

That notion is evil to the core, i.e. man cannot choose because he is so deprived. The Bible knows nothing about that.

"How a fallen, evil to the core, heart-turned-away, person can possibly “choose” to believe without supernatural intervention is beyond my understanding of scripture and salvation doctrine."

Exactly. Your understanding is flawed. You fail to incorporate the view of scripture into your mental deliberations.

Consider John 3:16.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Find your concordance and look up the verses that contains the word 'whosoever'. Consider those verses and their contexts and see for yourself that fallen man has a choice.

@secondson said
"It has been claimed in this forum by several Christians, including yourself if I’m not mistaken, that a person can simply choose to believe in God."

What do you mean "believe in God"? Do you mean 'believe God' or believe in the existence of God?

Are you a Calvinist and believe the doctrine of "total depravity", and believe a man cannot choose to believe (in) G ...[text shortened]... soever'. Consider those verses and their contexts and see for yourself that fallen man has a choice.

Must we go over this yet again...

As it is written:

Romans 3: 10-11
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

@divegeester said
Must we go over this yet again...

As it is written:

Romans 3: 10-11
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

Can't you remember what's being discussed? Of course there are none righteous. But that isn't what we were discussing.

We were discussing the matter of whether or not it is in man to do good apart from God, and whether or not man can choose of his own free will to receive God's grace.

You asserted that man cannot believe God without supernatural intervention, and that man cannot choose to believe.

I refuted that assertion unequivocally, then you changed the debate by making a ridiculous reference to a verse not applicable to what was being discussed.

And if you can't see that then you are confused.

What's more, there is no one who seeks God, doesn't mean God can't be sought, just means no one does.

@secondson said
Can't you remember what's being discussed? Of course there are none righteous. But that isn't what we were discussing.

We were discussing the matter of whether or not it is in man to do good apart from God, and whether or not man can choose of his own free will to receive God's grace.

You asserted that man cannot believe God without supernatural intervention, and that ...[text shortened]... ore, there is no one who seeks God, doesn't mean God can't be sought, just means no one does.

So how does someone “choose” to seek Christ?

You can’t have it both ways; one either has some element of “goodness” which enables them to “choose”...or simply choosing God is not an option and therefore not an argument to use against atheists.

@divegeester said
So how does someone “choose” to seek Christ?

You can’t have it both ways; one either has some element of “goodness” which enables them to “choose”...or simply choosing God is not an option and therefore not an argument to use against atheists.

Boy do you have your biblical concepts jumbled up.

You simply appear not to understand first principles.

Have you not read that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God?

The gospel of Jesus Christ have been broadcasted all over the world. People hear it, but CHOOSE to reject it.

God would be an absolute monster if an individual didn't have a free will and the ability to choose to believe.

Your logic is fundamentally flawed if you think a person can't choose because God elected them for eternal destruction.

Every living soul has the opportunity to receive or reject Christ.

We're not automatons.

@secondson said
God would be an absolute monster if an individual didn't have a free will and the ability to choose to believe.

I think when it comes to supernatural things, people realize that they believe them or don't believe them, they cannot choose or decide to believe them. For example, if someone believes in supernatural beings and supernatural phenomena, I don't think they can simply decide not to.

They might - using their free will - choose to expose themselves to information or people who might lead to a change in their beliefs, but they will end up realizing they still believe or realizing that they no longer believe, they won't make a decision to not believe.

Your God figure would be peddling something with a psychologically bogus ring to it if he were to think people could choose to believe or choose not to believe supernatural things.

I chose to stop self-identifying as a Christian when I realized my faith was lost, but I certainly did not choose to stop believing what I used to believe.

@fmf said
Do you think goodness can come from God without religion?

If there is a God then it came from God.

@fmf said
I certainly know what goodness is with regards to spirituality and the interaction of human spirits. Whether or not it aligns with your take on "goodness" as seen through your religious prism is not of great concern to me, although I will read what you have to say.

Yes and no.

Just look at moral issues such as slavery and abortion in the US. Before slavery was outlawed it was seen as "OK" but not ideal, however, centuries after being made illegal it seems morally repugnant.

Abortion is the same way. Before Roe vs. Wade abortion was seen as immoral, but decades after being made legal it is generally viewed as "OK" but not ideal.

We are moral lemmings even though we have an innate sense of right and wrong.

And even though we have an idea of what is right or wrong, we all violate that moral code anyway.

@whodey said
If there is a God then it came from God.

I have no objection to your belief in God although I would be sceptical if you claimed that your belief in God made you behave in a good way.

@whodey said
We are moral lemmings even though we have an innate sense of right and wrong.

Speak for yourself. If you say you are a moral lemming, so be it.

@whodey said
What I find is that as society becomes increasingly secular, it becomes increasingly tolerant of evil.

You believe opposing the death penalty is an example of "tolerating evil"?

@fmf said
I think when it comes to supernatural things, people realize that they believe them or don't believe them, they cannot choose or decide to believe them. For example, if someone believes in supernatural beings and supernatural phenomena, I don't think they can simply decide not to.

They might - using their free will - choose to expose themselves to information or people who mi ...[text shortened]... realized my faith was lost, but I certainly did not choose to stop believing what I used to believe.

You..."think when it comes to supernatural things, people realize that they believe them or don't believe them, they cannot choose or decide to believe them."

That's an incoherent assertion. There's no rational basis for it. It's just your opinion. For example: your "for example" is only a redundant reiteration of your first assertion.

One chooses to believe something based on information. When presented with the concept, for example, that the universe and everything in it was created by a being whose power and knowledge is beyond human comprehension, and that the very existence of it all is self evident, that it is true, one chooses to believe it or not.

The alternative is that we are automatons subject only to external stimuli, void of internal self determination and will.

"I chose to stop self-identifying as a Christian when I realized my faith was lost, but I certainly did not choose to stop believing what I used to believe."

You chose, but didn't choose? You "lost" faith? I'm not familiar with that concept as I find it nowhere in the Bible. Biblically speaking, if I'm not mistaken, one either has faith or they don't.

I think what you did have, which you labeled faith, was an ideological/theological view which couldn't stand up to in the face of scrutiny and criticism, and you caved.

When one knows something is true, i.e. with sure and infallible evidence, one doesn't lose faith. They simply never had faith to begin with, because, contrary to popular understanding, faith isn't blind.

The substance of faith belongs to the spiritual, i.e. those that have been "born again", or if you will regenerated, that is brought back to life spiritually so that they are equipped to receive the Spirit of Truth.

@secondson said
That's an incoherent assertion. There's no rational basis for it. It's just your opinion. For example: your "for example" is only a redundant reiteration of your first assertion.

Yes, you're right, it is just my opinion, but it is not incoherent nor is it without a rational basis. Nothing was redundant about what I said.