God foresees???

Originally posted by scottishinnz
But we've done it millions of times. You never listen! You don't actually have a logically coherent vision of God. It's pointless trying to debate this!!

However, if we know someones future, they cannot do anything else other than what you know they WILL do. They might THINK they have free will, but since they cannot make any decision other than the one pre-destined for them, they do not.

You said it yourself "if WE know" . I thought it was about what God knows. Do you not see that unconsciously you are placing God on your shoulder inside space/time?

You don't listen! I have consistently argued that God knows your future because he knows it like you know Hitler's future and therefore does not foresee events but "post" sees them. This may seem strange but we do it all the time. It's just recognising that time is relative across the universe. Your relative position enables you to know perfectly what Hitler's future is. If Goebels knew Hitler's future perfectly then that would be different because that would be knowing "in advance" foresight that would require pre-destination.

BUT.... you cannot prove that you simply having a perfect knowledge of Hitler's future means that Hitler could not have been making free choices. No-one has been able to prove this ...not you or whitey or anyone. You are a being that knows Hitler's future and you are simply not going to be able to show how that proves his choices were determined. God is a being that knows your future choices too , I don't see how that proves your future choices are determined.

What you need to understand is that in essence the idea that there is "THE" future is wrong because it's all relative, What YOU call "THE" future is actually someone else's past. Your past is Hitler's future etc etc. Come on Scotty , it's not that hard!!!!

I await your proof. Otherwise stop talking as if you have an open and shut case. You do not.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You know that Hitler will shoot himself somewhere along his timeline but there's no logic in the world that can prove that at the moment he shoots he is not making a free choice. Even that fact that you know that's what he will do makes no difference because it's no proof that he HAD to do it. All we know is that he did infact do it.

Once you can p ...[text shortened]... free then you will have a case. Until then all your sniping will just be more axes to grind.

And you too are are demonstrating nothing. The real problem is that you never really define what you mean by 'free choice'. If you did, I could take you up on the challenge.
In my opinion there are only two scenarios:
1. the universe is continually branching into multiple universes.
2. there is only one timeline and Hitler could only make one choice.
Whether or not you call Hitlers 'choice' in 2 'free', I do not know and what you mean by "HAD to do it" I also don't know. You have a habit of pretending that they are well defined and understood when they are not.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If God could foresee the holocaust was going to happen then that would mean that the holocaust must have actually happened in the "future". If it has not happened in some future time then how can it be "foreseen" ? How is it possible to foresee a future that doesn't actually exist in reality? You tell me.

Can even God foresee a future that doesn't ...[text shortened]... t's not the "future" nor a prediction . He neither foresees NOR predicts.

Before you go even further, think about this. We as humans can't even begin to fathom God's mind. Our logic can't comprehend God Himself, let alone His thought process. Do you make your heart beat, digest food, or even awake up. God put all that in motion. What's your power source? We can plug in a lamp, and it turns on, what's ours? We didn't start it, and It can't be evolution. Where is the half man half monkey that should be still evolving. Why isn't man evoling. My point is God is beyond us in everyway we that we imagine and more. As people, we should do our best on getting to know Him, He'll take care of the rest believe. Faith.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You said it yourself "if WE know" . I thought it was about what God knows. Do you not see that unconsciously you are placing God on your shoulder inside space/time?

You don't listen! I have consistently argued that God knows your future because he knows it like you know Hitler's future and therefore does not foresee events but "post" sees them. This ...[text shortened]... . Otherwise stop talking as if you have an open and shut case. You do not.

I really don't know what you don't get.

If anything infalliably knows what decisions an individual will make in their future then those are the decisions the individual must be going to make.

If that is the case then the individual's life is pre-destined, and free will an illusion.

It's that simple. God's viewpoint has NO RELEVANCE.

Originally posted by realeyez
Before you go even further, think about this. We as humans can't even begin to fathom God's mind. Our logic can't comprehend God Himself, let alone His thought process. Do you make your heart beat, digest food, or even awake up. God put all that in motion. What's your power source? We can plug in a lamp, and it turns on, what's ours? We didn't start it, and ...[text shortened]... should do our best on getting to know Him, He'll take care of the rest believe. Faith.

What utter rot.

Humans get our energy from food. Food ultimately comes from plants, which get their energy from the sun. The sun gets its energy from the fussion reactions in its core, which, in turn, are a result of the action of gravity. Gravity is pretty fundamental, and we don't really understand it all that well.

As for your diatribe about evolution, well, you are quite possibly the single most uneducated individual I have ever met on the subject.

Evolution works over thousands of years - there is no way that we can see human evolution within a human lifespan. We can see it in bacteria, (for example http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,2669,A-New-Step-In-Evolution,Carl-Zimmer) and other species however. We can see it in our genes, in our chromosomes (for example, the fact that we have two less chromosomes than other primates, which resulted from the fusing of primate chromosomes 2 and 13 (I think)). We can see it in the fossil record, and in the subtle adaptations that species have for their own unique environments.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I really don't know what you don't get.

If anything infalliably knows what decisions an individual will make in their future then those are the decisions the individual must be going to make.

If that is the case then the individual's life is pre-destined, and free will an illusion.

It's that simple. God's viewpoint has NO RELEVANCE.

But you have just stated a position and nothing more. Where is your argument? You say.....

"If anything infalliably knows what decisions an individual will make in their future then those are the decisions the individual must be going to make.

If that is the case then the individual's life is pre-destined, and free will an illusion." (scotty)

I could equally state "If anything infalliably knows what decisions an individual will make in their future then those are the decisions the individual is going to make.

If that is the case then the individual's life might be pre-destined, or there could be free will " (KM)

In both cases these would just be pure statements reflecting a position. How can one know which one is right and which one is not.

Your statement is catagorical and thus requires further argument and proof. If you think your position is correct then please provide a proof , rather than just stating it as self evidently true.

My argument is that from our position on the timeline we know Hitler's future , and this means that Hitler does kill himself in 1945. However , even though we do know it does happen and will happen from Hitler's perspective in time it is only known by us after the event and not before. We know his timeline but there's nothing in that knowledge that rules out the potential for another timeline.

Your argument is like saying "Because we know what Hitler did in his future timeline that means that there's no way that he could ever have done any differently. The fact that this particular timeline exists means that it is the only timeline that could ever have existed"

If we said this about the solar system it would sound potty " The fact that the solar system is this way means that this is the only way it could ever have been"

It's like saying "everything is pre- destined because it is" .

Think about it , if Hitler did have free will how would things look differently to us in 2008 ? Would we be able to know he had free will?