29 May '08 20:37>1 edit
If God could foresee the holocaust was going to happen then that would mean that the holocaust must have actually happened in the "future". If it has not happened in some future time then how can it be "foreseen" ? How is it possible to foresee a future that doesn't actually exist in reality? You tell me.
Can even God foresee a future that doesn't really happen? Doesn't foreseeing the future require that said future exists? Otherwise (if Hitler had free will) it would be impossible for God to completely foresee Hitler's actions because they were inherently unpredictable and at least partly free of pre-deterministic forces. The only way he could possibly have perfect foreknowledge of the holocaust would be if the holocaust actually took place in some future time. BUT...if the holocaust takes place in 1939-45 how can God make it "un-take place" because it's already happened.
You see the problem here is you either see God as
1) looking into a real and actual future
Or
2) being a master bookmaker will incredible predictive abilities
If you choose 1) then God must by definition be looking into a future that exists and that future would be unpreventable because it would have to happen in order to be the "future".
If you choose 2) then you are accepting that God is trying to "predict" (as opposed to foresee) and if he is the great predictor then he can only be perfect at this if the universe is entirely deterministic . Once free will is introduced then that's a whole new ball game and even God is unable to predict.
The problem becomes even more difficult if you consider that if God is utterly infallible in his foreseeing of a real and actual future then there's no way he can stop it from happening. Why? Because the only way he can change the future is if it is not set in stone and he has made some kind of mistake. If he perfectly foresees the holocaust then it's too late at that point to stop it. If he predicts it perfectly then free will cannot exist because the only way things can be perfectly predicted is if they are governed by totally perfect deterministic forces , which free will is not by definition.
My overall point is that it's illogical and incoherent to suggest that God can prevent a future he has perfectly foreseen. It's also illogical to suggest that free actions can be perfectly predicted. This inevitably leads us to wonder how God actually knows the future . The answer is that for him it's not the "future" nor a prediction . He neither foresees NOR predicts.
Can even God foresee a future that doesn't really happen? Doesn't foreseeing the future require that said future exists? Otherwise (if Hitler had free will) it would be impossible for God to completely foresee Hitler's actions because they were inherently unpredictable and at least partly free of pre-deterministic forces. The only way he could possibly have perfect foreknowledge of the holocaust would be if the holocaust actually took place in some future time. BUT...if the holocaust takes place in 1939-45 how can God make it "un-take place" because it's already happened.
You see the problem here is you either see God as
1) looking into a real and actual future
Or
2) being a master bookmaker will incredible predictive abilities
If you choose 1) then God must by definition be looking into a future that exists and that future would be unpreventable because it would have to happen in order to be the "future".
If you choose 2) then you are accepting that God is trying to "predict" (as opposed to foresee) and if he is the great predictor then he can only be perfect at this if the universe is entirely deterministic . Once free will is introduced then that's a whole new ball game and even God is unable to predict.
The problem becomes even more difficult if you consider that if God is utterly infallible in his foreseeing of a real and actual future then there's no way he can stop it from happening. Why? Because the only way he can change the future is if it is not set in stone and he has made some kind of mistake. If he perfectly foresees the holocaust then it's too late at that point to stop it. If he predicts it perfectly then free will cannot exist because the only way things can be perfectly predicted is if they are governed by totally perfect deterministic forces , which free will is not by definition.
My overall point is that it's illogical and incoherent to suggest that God can prevent a future he has perfectly foreseen. It's also illogical to suggest that free actions can be perfectly predicted. This inevitably leads us to wonder how God actually knows the future . The answer is that for him it's not the "future" nor a prediction . He neither foresees NOR predicts.