22 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterToo bad some of the prophesies concern the actions of heathens.
God can control the actions of some humans some of the time if they freely grant him control of their lives. Free will means that we are also free to hand back control (to a lesser or greater degree) of our lives to God at ceratin times. It's called surrendering to the will of God , you may have read about it in your long years of Bible study.
Somehow, I doubt they're aware they're 'submitting to the will of God'.
22 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterIf Jesus feels our pain all the time, then it's nothing special that he took human form and was beaten and killed, because he felt nothing that he wasn't already feeling.
Some of the questions you are asking are brilliant. They are exactly the kind of questions you should be asking , but you do need to realise that it may lead you to some answers.
The person with the lingering terminal illness is indwelt by God himself in the form of the Holy Spirit. Your argument depends on the idea that God visits our planet suffer ...[text shortened]... our church ever explain this to you? I'm not surprised you found it all to be nonsensical!
23 May 06
2 edits
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemEr.. perhaps the point is that he is able to feel our pain all the time precisely because he took human nature (realised that saying he took on just the human form is possibly heretical*)?
If Jesus feels our pain all the time, then it's nothing special that he took human form and was beaten and killed, because he felt nothing that he wasn't already feeling.
* Monophysitism
23 May 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemSo maybe God even uses/influences people that don't believe in him from time to time, infact I'm sure he probably does . Possibly they don't know that they're doing God's will but inadvertently are. I can certainly think back to occasions when I didn't believe when I might well have been being used by God to be there for someone else. I think there is plenty of scope in Christianity for this. Just because you are an Atheist doesn't mean God doesn't have a plan for your life or will make use of you in some way.
Too bad some of the prophesies concern the actions of heathens.
Somehow, I doubt they're aware they're 'submitting to the will of God'.
NB- The word 'use' has negative connotations that suggest manipulation , I do not mean this facet of the word rather a 'making good use of something' or 'finding a usefulness of something for a good purpose'
23 May 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemWow , you really do try your hardest to find a problem anywhere you can don't you!
If Jesus feels our pain all the time, then it's nothing special that he took human form and was beaten and killed, because he felt nothing that he wasn't already feeling.
Interesting though, you think that it's 'nothing special' that God himself in human form chose to allow himself to be humiliated , beaten and killed by his own creations? This is an act of vulnerability and humility that is completely unpalatable to a religion like Islam. Buddhists would say he was being 'too emotionally attached to the illusion of matter '(maya). The zealots of the time thought he was barmy , how is dying on the cross going to bring victory?
Now to the crunch. Christianity says that God enters into human suffering and gains victory over death. So the crucifixion and life of Jesus is how he does this. If he hadn't come to earth and died then he wouldn't have entered into anything anyway and wouldn't be able to be alongside us feeling our pain with us.
Also ,how on earth do you imagine Jesus is supposed to enter into our suffering and empathise with our pain unless he has actually experienced pain and suffering himself. Have you ever had some well meaning idiot come up to you when you were having a bad hair day and say "I know how you feel..." . It's so irritating! Jesus is able to sympathise and empathise authentically because he knows suffering himself as well as knowing your suffering. If he died peacefully in his sleep you would cry " how can this Jesus claim any right to be alongside me in my suffering he's not even been there himself!"
Another point is that until he died and was ressurected he had not entered into human suffering and death yet so in one sense he wasn't 'already' feeling our pain . I know this makes no sense in terms of time because God is eternal. But if I were to point out that effects of Jesus's death were not just in the years afterwards but effected all time so it also applies to men born 3,000 BC just as well then you will start to see how paradoxical comparing time to eternity can be. You need to think more about what the phrase 'already' or 'before' actually mean here. In one sense Jesus has always felt our pain from the beginning of time itself , in another sense he could not do this without entering into our pain during real human history but the effects of this work backwards to the beginning of time and forwards to the end of time.
Remember , God ain't easy!
23 May 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemI think this might be an appropriate point in the debate to ask you what kind of Christianity you were exposed to and whether you ever felt your faith was 'alive'. Did you ever get any sense of the reality of God's presence with you ? Was it ever a love affair with God or an emotional thing or just dry philosophy? I'm making an assumption that you were a dilligent Bible studier who crossed all the t's and dotted the i's but never quite grasped what it was all about.
23 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterFor heathens to fulfill prophesy, one of the two must be true:
So maybe God even uses/influences people that don't believe in him from time to time, infact I'm sure he probably does . Possibly they don't know that they're doing God's will but inadvertently are. I can certainly think back to occasions when I didn't believe when I might well have been being used by God to be there for someone else. I think there is ...[text shortened]... g good use of something' or 'finding a usefulness of something for a good purpose'
1) God forsees their actions
2) God influences their actions
1) goes against your claim that God can't see the future, and 2) goes against your claim that God does not interfere with free will.
Can you give a third possibility?
23 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterI'm still not sure why you think finding the problems is the hard part.
Wow , you really do try your hardest to find a problem anywhere you can don't you!
Interesting though, you think that it's 'nothing special' that God himself in human form chose to allow himself to be humiliated , beaten and killed by his own creations? This is an act of vulnerability and humility that is completely unpalatable to a religion like I ...[text shortened]... of time and forwards to the end of time.
Remember , God ain't easy!
I don't view the humilation of the crucifixion as anything special, either. The Jews were allegedly kicked out of the Holy Land for their betrayal; God knew who was getting the last laugh.
Let me ask you this: Can Jesus empathize with the labor pains of a pregnant woman? If you credit him with the ability, you'd better apologize to your 'well-meaning idiot', because he can also empathize without experiencing the same type of suffering as you have.
23 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterSorry, but that's none of your business.
I think this might be an appropriate point in the debate to ask you what kind of Christianity you were exposed to and whether you ever felt your faith was 'alive'. Did you ever get any sense of the reality of God's presence with you ? Was it ever a love affair with God or an emotional thing or just dry philosophy? I'm making an assumption that you wer ...[text shortened]... who crossed all the t's and dotted the i's but never quite grasped what it was all about.
24 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterAnd you know for a fact this god is not controlling things right now? Maybe getting a big laugh out of that little girl who was born with no legs or those kids in Mozambique that got their legs blown off by land mines, how do you in fact know this god isn't doing it all and getting a big laugh out of it?
I think you have a confused interpretation of omnipotent. He controlled the start and will control the finish largely , but left the middle bit a lot more open. The fact that he hasn't totally controlled the middle bit doesn't mean that he couldn't if he so chose.
Also , if you are so graduated in theology you will have heard of this one...? Quest ...[text shortened]... te a rock so heavy that he can't lift it? If he can't does that prove he's not omnipotent?
24 May 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzNo he hasn't.
Then he's got a real funny way of showing it.
Think about it.... if these "bad things" didn't happen, you wouldn't even ask questions about God and His nature. If everything is "good" (to your eyes anyway) then, as the selfish beings we are, we would never even seek God.