KellyJay and some other Christians who believe in eternal hell have been refusing to answer this question, but I’m not going to let it go as it demands and needs a response.
How does a non-believer manage to see past the literal interpretation of the Jesus in Revelation supervising the eternal torture of billions of other non believers, to the loving Jesus of the gospel?
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Originally posted by @divegeesterProve that God's love and God's judgement are two mutually exclusive attributes.
KellyJay and some other Christians who believe in eternal hell have been refusing to answer this question, but I’m not going to let it go as it demands and needs a response.
How does a non-believer manage to see past the literal interpretation of the Jesus in Revelation supervising the eternal torture of billions of other non believers, to the loving Jesus of the gospel?
Demonstrate from the Bible that one or the other attribute God may posses, but not BOTH.
What gives you the rationale to believe that BECAUSE God loves, God cannot judge and conversely BECAUSE God condemns in judgment, God cannot love.
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At the above request, this is what I expect knowing this poster. He will not answer.
Divegeester will boast that he won't let go of some heavy question important to him. But I expect that we'll be able to count the accumulated number of times he dodges questions put to him.
This time I'll keep a count.
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We might start from the beginning of the Bible. The first instance of God displaying TWO attributes of His love and His judgment is upon Adam.
I think we can conclude that God must have loved Adam. He placed him in paradise of Eden. The only rule was for him not to eat of a forbidden tree - and THAT for his own good.
Adam disobeys, sin and death enter into man. and God places a restriction against him approaching the tree of life. God sends Adam forth to labor hard on the land, expelling him from Paradise.
Did the love of God for Adam make it impossible that the judgment upon Adam could not take place?
No, though God's attribute of love is seen, His attribute of judgment, condemnation, exclusion from His own divine life and expulsion from His deepest eternal blessing is seen also. (Genesis 3:22-24) .
Having said that I would point out that God's love promises Adam and Eve a salvation some day. (Genesis 3:15)
What is the next great ocurrence of both God's love working along side of God's judgment ?
I think we have to look to the next story of Cain and Abel.
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Divegeester loves to taunt me that no one reads my posts. Maybe So lol.
But I sure derive the benefit of diving into the word of God.
The next account is of Cain's murder of Abel.
God judges Cain. But He does not do so before He lovingly encourages Cain that he too can have his offering accepted if he does right.
"And Jehovah said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen?
If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door, and his desire is for you, but you must rule over him." (Gen. 4:6,7)
Cain doesn't listen to God's love but stealth-fully murders his brother Abel. God's anger and sadness are manifested with His judging Cain.
Cain doesn't have anything to say except that his punishment is too heavy for him to bear. That is ALL he cares about.
"And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.
When you till the ground, it will no longer yield its strength to you. You will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth." (Gen. 4:11-12)
Now get this. Cain's response reminds me of some people's talk about eternal punishment. No repentance is seen for rejecting Christ's death on their behalf. All they can say is like what Cain the first human murderer next replies.
"And Cain said to Jehovah, My punishment is greater than I can bear." (v.13)
The enormity of the offense against God and man is secondary to non-existent in Cain. The ONLY thing he obsesses over is the degree of discomfort HE will have.
"My punishment is greater than I can bear."
Interesting. Too bad nobody is reading or getting any benefit.
Well, God still shows some kind of love in that He forbids any other human being to take vengence on Cain. Captital punishment and human government are still not permitted yet on earth.
"Now You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground, and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth,
and whoever finds me will kill me."
Any sorrow or repentance for what he did to his brothers?
None.
Any asking for forgiveness which I am sure God would have been willing to give? None.
Only thinking of himself and how hard the punishment will be. God on the other hand still extends some kind of mercy to Cain. No one is permitted to take vengeance on HIM by killing HIM as he did to his brother.
"And Jehovah said to him, Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold. And Jehovah put a mark on Cain so that anyone who found him would not strike him." (v.15)
God's love was manifested simultaneously with God's judgment of condemnation. He can have BOTH divine attributes.
Originally posted by @sonshipWhy not just address the premise in the OP instead of firing off all these overly defensive counter-measures.
Prove that God's love and God's judgement are two [b] mutually exclusive attributes.
Demonstrate from the Bible that one or the other attribute God may posses, but not BOTH.
What gives you the rationale to believe that BECAUSE God loves, God cannot judge and conversely BECAUSE God condemns in judgment, God cannot love.[/b]
These are YOUR beliefs!
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Originally posted by @divegeesterYea, yea, they are my beliefs. So I respond according to "my beliefs".
Why not just address the premise in the OP instead of firing off all these overly defensive counter-measures.
These are YOUR beliefs!
I don't know what else you're expecting. You're running your repeated theme according to YOUR'S.
Originally posted by @sonshipNo one is asking to to explain why you believe the stuff you believe.
We might start from the beginning of the Bible. The first instance of God displaying TWO attributes of His love and His judgment is upon Adam.
I think we can conclude that God must have loved Adam. He placed him in paradise of Eden. The only rule was for him not to eat of a forbidden tree - and THAT for his own good.
Adam disobeys, sin and death ente ...[text shortened]... g along side of God's judgment ?
I think we have to look to the next story of Cain and Abel.
The OP is asking how an unbeliever can see past the eternal torturing in hell by Jesus of all the other unbelievers, to the loving Jesus.
How do you explain that? If you ever do.
Originally posted by @sonshipThe OP is asking how an unbeliever can see past the eternal torturing in hell by Jesus of all the other unbelievers, to the loving Jesus. How do you explain this if an unbeliever asks you?
I don't know what else you're expecting.
Maybe you just don’t tell them about Jesus torturing billions of people in hell. This is your opportunity to tells us how you manage it, but you are on your own as KellyJay is to cowardly and the rest are clueless duckspeakers.
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Originally posted by @divegeesterCheer up. You asked for discussion on your favorite topic yet once again. You're getting some.
🙄
You’ve just spent three posts dodging the question in the OP.
Hilarious.
Your question has a presupposition which YOU wish to shield from all examination.
Your presupposition? God's love and God's wrath CANNOT exist together from the same Person.
PROVE IT!
Originally posted by @sonshipI don’t need to prove anything. If you think I need to prove something to you start a thread on it.
Cheer up. You asked for discussion on your favorite topic yet once again. You're getting some.
Your question has a presupposition which YOU wish to shield from all examination.
Your presupposition? God's love and God's wrath CANNOT exist together from the same Person.
PROVE IT!
This thread is about conversations with unbelievers. Maybe you don’t ever actually talk face to face with unbelievers?
Anyone else who believes in eternal torture doctrine want to tell us how they explain it to a non believer?
Perhaps none of you talk about it.
Is it like a skeleton in the closet that you only talk about online when pressed to. Or maybe you only let your newbie Christians in on the gruesome teaching once they have fully swallowed sufficient kool-aid?
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Originally posted by @divegeester
The OP is asking how an unbeliever can see past the eternal torturing in hell by Jesus of all the other unbelievers, to the loving Jesus. How do you explain this if an unbeliever asks you?
Maybe you just don’t tell them about Jesus torturing billions of people in hell. This is your opportunity to tells us how you manage it, but you are on your own as KellyJay is to cowardly and the rest are clueless duckspeakers.
The OP is asking how an unbeliever can see past the eternal torturing in hell by Jesus of all the other unbelievers, to the loving Jesus.
I saw the OP. Hardly another "variation" on a familiar theme. Nothing new.
Whether unbeliever or believer the issue is the same - Should man expect that two attributes of God cannot exist together in the same God - His love / His judgment.
Of course for max effect you as usual color up front His judgment as sadistic. You always have to embellish with your special effects to appeal to human emotions.
How do you explain this if an unbeliever asks you?
I don't always KNOW how I will answer. Jesus, if you READ your New Testament, said that there would be times when it would be given to His disciples at the moment what they should say.
"Settle it therefore in your hearts not to take thought beforehand how to reply in defense.
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all those opposing you will not be able to resist or refute." (Luke 21:14,15)
We don't always know what we will say. Sometimes it will be given by the Father, by the Holy Spirit what we should say.
"Give me your canned reply" is what you're asking.
I don't promise you that I know what I would say.
I have to trust in God.
Maybe you just don’t tell them about Jesus torturing billions of people in hell.
Maybe. I've tried to write volumes here without immediately talking about the lake of fire. You seem to despise the attempt though.
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Now it is high time that the term torturing be addressed. At first glance there is a verse that says God will turn some punished ones over to the torturers. However it is not too certain that He didn't mean these ones are tortured by their OWN torments.
You know you can be tormented by your own deep regret.
Of course in Revelation 14 you have the scene of God inflicting torment and it occurs in the presence of the Lamb and His angels.
That it occurs in His presence does not have to mean, according to your sensationalism, that He tends with entertainment to pay attention to that and nothing else for all eternity.
It occurs in His presence doesn't have to mean Christ gazes into the scene with pleasure forever.
But anyway, YOU have never demonstrated from the Bible that God's great eternal love CANNOT exist if God also executes a condemning eternal punishment.
You simply have not shown from Scripture that the TWO attributes of God are mutually exclusive.