Garden of Eden

Originally posted by jaywill
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i see so Jesus never regarded himself as being equal to God

(Philippians 2:5-6) . . .Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

yet here you are ignoring the bibl ...[text shortened]... [b] negative 1000 ![/b]

you are anti Christ, that is a fact, you have disavowed the words of the Christ and seek to establish your own.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
[b]i see so Jesus never regarded himself as being equal to God


thats mate i believe, robbie 1: anti Christians 0

Careful, Hoss. I am a Christian, so don't be labeling me "anti-Christian." I never said you weren't a Christian--I believe you are. You're simply not a Trinitarian. I am. That, for me, is not a "deal-breaker" (though some in my denomination may disagree). We can still believe that Christ is our Savior and disagree on theological points. But "anti-Christian"? If this continues, I feel a report coming on.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you are anti Christ, that is a fact, you have disavowed the words of the Christ and seek to establish your own.

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you are anti Christ, that is a fact, you have disavowed the words of the Christ and seek to establish your own.
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You did not deny that you Jehovah's Witnesses do indeed teach that Jesus is Michael the angel.

The Apostle John refers to the antichrist teachers as the ones who deny the Father and the Son:

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son" (1 John 2:22)

You and your teachers from Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Father and the Son. Oh, you do use the terminology "Son". But when you get down underneath the surface what you are REALLY TEACHING is Jehovah "the Father" and the angel Michael.

Yes, your New World Translation and your Watchtower jargon may mention the Son. But when we get down pass the rhetoric to mislead, what you REALLY have down there is the Old Testament Jehovah and Michael His angel.

In that regard, in teaching the Father and His angel Michael, you really have an antichrist teaching which denies the Father and the Son.

That is why "they went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us, but they went out that they might be manifested that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:19) He is speaking of the "many antichrists" in the previous verse 18.

You went out from the Christian church to manifest that you are not of the brotherhood but are different. You do have some rhetoric which sounds biblical. But your Father and Son REALLY amounts to Jehovah the Old Testament God and His angel Michael.

This is a teaching of an antichrist that denies the Father and the Son (v.22)

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Careful, Hoss. I am a Christian, so don't be labeling me "anti-Christian." I never said you weren't a Christian--I believe you are. You're simply not a Trinitarian. I am. That, for me, is not a "deal-breaker" (though some in my denomination may disagree). We can still believe that Christ is our Savior and disagree on theological points. But "anti-Christian"? If this continues, I feel a report coming on.

Yes it is a rather strong assertion I agree, never the less, if you want to report me then go ahead, perhaps i will face the Inquisition, have my tongue torn out and be burned at the stake like Michael Servetus at the hands of that murderer Calvin.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]====================================
you are anti Christ, that is a fact, you have disavowed the words of the Christ and seek to establish your own.
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You did not deny that you Jehovah's Witnesses do indeed teach that Jesus is Michael the angel.

The Apostle John refers to the antichrist teachers This is a teaching of an antichrist that denies the Father and the Son (v.22)[/b]

We do not deny the father and the son, you do, you want to make the father the son and the son the father, if that's not a denial, then i dont know what is. We do not deny the father and the son. You have made the son equal to the father and the father equal to the son, in a direct violation of Christian teaching, for it contradicts the words of the Christ himself. Did i mention we do not deny the father and the son?

We separated ourselves from mainstream Christianity because you are teaching falsehoods and practising paganism masquerading as Christianity and we take very seriously our relationship with our God not wishing to displease him in any way.

(2 Corinthians 6:17-18) . . .“‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’”  “‘And I shall be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.”

Indeed, Jehovah the Almighty is our father, his son, Jesus Christ our King, and it is beautiful in our eyes!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
We do not deny the father and the son, you do, you want to make the father the son and the son the father, if that's not a denial, then i dont know what is. We do not deny the father and the son. You have made the son equal to the father and the father equal to the son, in a direct violation of Christian teaching, for it contradicts the words of the ...[text shortened]... ah the Almighty is our father, his son, Jesus Christ our King, and it is beautiful in our eyes!

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We do not deny the father and the son, you do, you want to make the father the son and the son the father, if that's not a denial, then i dont know what is.
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In making Jesus Christ God's angel Michael, the Jehovah's Witnesses are denying the Father and the Son.

You are affirming, Jehovah and one of His angels.

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We do not deny the father and the son. You have made the son equal to the father and the father equal to the son, in a direct violation of Christian teaching, for it contradicts the words of the Christ himself.
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Only in selecting certain words and twisting others do you make this charge. Seletively, you emphasize only the words that support your Arian Christology.

And it was rightfully rejected by the Christian brothers centries ago. Charles Russell re-packaged the old Arian heresies and today the rehash is called "The Jehovah's Witnesses" .

Our Christian brothers, whatever else were their weaknesses and mistakes, were right to reject the false Christology of Arius.

You labor to replace "the Father and the Son" with Jehovah of the Old Testament and one of His angels. You are rebelling and fighting against the New Testament. And the ancient brothers were absolutely right, whatever else were their failures, to recognize the heretical nature of the Arian attack against the Triune God.

They had experience and enjoyment of God. We can detect no difference in our subjective experience, between Jesus Christ and God.

In the intellect we find it a mystery. The Bible, not me, said "mystery" - "the mystery of God, Christ " (Col.2:2; comp. 4:3)

Do you have the angel Michael living in you ? Where does the Bible tell you that Michael the angel comes with Jehovah to make an abode with you?

But to those who do not deny the Father and the Son, the Son with the Father, as the divine "We" will come and make an abode with the lovers of Christ (John 14:23) .

In replacing the Son with Michael the angel, you cannot have the receiving of the Holy Spirit. You cannot have the receiving of Jesus. You have traded that for the sake of proud human intellect. You have traded the experience of the indwelling Triune God for an objective only God and His angel Michael.

It is easier on your mind. But it was not me but the Apostles who spoke of "the mystery of God, Christ" (Colossians 2:2)

Here "mystery" does not mean we cannot know the Triune God inwardly and subjectively. It means that He is wonderful, full of wonder, and beyond our compete comprehension BUT not beyond man's experience and enjoyment.

You have traded experience and enjoyment for the sake of wanting to make the proud human intellect feel more comfortable and a political hope in a kingdom.
This is all a deception.

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Did i mention we do not deny the father and the son?
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Watchtower rhetoric is misleading. Down at the bottom of the teaching, you go door to door to fight against the Three-one God of the Bible's revelation. And you labor to replace the biblical revelation with Russell's and Arius' God and a created angel.

Some of the things taught about Christmas, Easter, and pagan influence into Christiandom, are true. But the Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only bible teachers who recognize those things.

The Brethren and others saw through those pagan pollutions of the Christian faith. And some other Christians did and do as well. My observations are not about the true things the JWs do teach.

My criticism is your Christology and apparent lack of experience of receiving Christ. Instead of experience by faith you want to go back to law keeping of the Old Testament and have God and an angel as your focus.

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We separated ourselves from mainstream Christianity because you are teaching falsehoods and practising paganism masquerading as Christianity and we take very seriously our relationship with our God not wishing to displease him in any way.
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As said, others have seperated themselves from the Catholic ingestion of paganism to leaven the gospel. In that I do not criticize you.

In denying the Triune God I criticize Charles Russell and his Jehovah's Witnesses.

Now we have argued this before. I get nowhere with you and you're not going to convince me.

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(2 Corinthians 6:17-18) . . .“‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” “‘And I shall be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.”
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You should do this AND not try to change the Father and the Son to Jehovah and an angel.

It is always easier to deceive people when you MIX truth and falsehood together. That is the dangerous problem.

Because there is some true things in the Jehovah's Witnesses teaching you get deceived by the lies that Satan has subtly mixed into the teaching. Some of us, by God's mercy, are able to discern the true things from the dangerous errors.

And you have been deceived, but not wholly so. You have taken in some false teachings mixed in with things which have much truth in them. Go ahead and reject Saturnalia and Mary worship and the 25th of December as the birthday of Jesus.

Don't mess with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as God.
You can talk about kingdom all you want. But you won't deceive this Jesus lover with making the Son of God Michael the angel.

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Indeed, Jehovah the Almighty is our father, his son, Jesus Christ our King, and it is beautiful in our eyes!
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BUT THAT THE WORD (GOD) BECAME FLESH, that is hideous in your eyes. Why? Because Satan HATES the incarnation of God as a man. The incarnation of God as a man is ugly in your eyes. Why ? So you have to make Christ the Son of God one of the created angels.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=====================================
We do not deny the father and the son, you do, you want to make the father the son and the son the father, if that's not a denial, then i dont know what is.
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In making Jesus Christ God's angel Michael, the Jehovah's Witnesses are denying the Father and the Son o you have to make Christ the Son of God one of the created angels.[/b]

First of all we have a biblical basis for asserting that Christ is the arch angel. Its not like we made it up, if you do not accept it, then thats your business

Firstly the scriptures term the angels as 'sons of God', are you aware of this?

(Job 38:4-7) . . .Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell [me], if you do know understanding.   Who set its measurements, in case you know, Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line?   Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down, Or who laid its cornerstone,   When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause. . .

clearly Angels are described as sons of God, was Jesus Christ a son of God, yes indeed, we read that he was a created entity, the only begotten son of God,

(1 John 4:9) . . .because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him. . .

Therefore the Bible states quite clearly that

1. Christ was a son of God, as are the angels,

2. that he was begotten, that is a created entity,

making all your assertions of watchtowewr this, new world translation that, just the same old stuff that trinitarians try to use to avoid the obvious, they are promulgating pagan and anti Christian doctrines, having disavowed the teachings of the Christ both in word and deed, and are in need of repentance if they are to see life.

My wife states that i should pray for you Jaywill, for she too was once is spiritual darkness, being confused about the true nature of the Christ and his relationship to God, but truth set her free. It takes humility and a reasoning mind to reassess cherished values, especially when one is being told that Christ is not God, but a son of God. Does this diminish his stature? not at all, it makes what he accomplished all the more wonderful and amazing.

The only Biblical entity that has tried to make himself equal to God and who has desired the worship that belongs to God, is Satan the Devil, a fact which is highly significant in the context of this discussion.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
First of all we have a biblical basis for asserting that Christ is the arch angel. Its not like we made it up, if you do not accept it, then so what? Firstly the scriptures term the angels as 'sons of God', are you aware of this?

(Job 38:4-7) . . .Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell [me], if you do know understanding.   Who his stature? not at all, it makes what he accomplished all the more wonderful and amazing.

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First of all we have a biblical basis for asserting that Christ is the arch angel. Its not like we made it up, if you do not accept it, then so what? Firstly the scriptures term the angels as 'sons of God', are you aware of this?
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Yes. I know that "sons of God" does sometimes refer to angels in the Old Testament. And Christ appears in the Old Testament before incarnation as The Angel of Jehovah.

But the Word in John 1:1,14 is not one of the angels. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

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(Job 38:4-7) . . .Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell [me], if you do know understanding. Who set its measurements, in case you know, Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line? Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down, Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause. . .
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I have long known this and other passages about the angels. But "the Word" in John's Gospel is not one of these sons of God.

This Word is the only begotten Son of God. And after resurrection He is also the Firstborn Son of God. You cannot possibly use Job 38:4-7 to destroy the most central message of the Gospel of John, and indeed the whole New Testament.

If Christ is the only begotten Son, then the "sons of God" in Job 38:4-7 must mean something other then the Logos, the Word of John 1:1,14.

Even if the Bible speaks of "the man Gabriel" (Dan. 9:21), who had an appearance like a man, and is also called an angel (Luke 1:19), that is not "the Word".

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." We may say that Michael or Gabriel or the angelic "sons of God" were with God.

We cannot say that they were God. And that is what the Apostle John wrote - " ... and the Word was God".

Hebrews makes crystal clear that Christ was no angel in that regard. But in so far as Christ also was sent, He is the Angel as a sent One.

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clearly Angels are described as sons of God, was Jesus Christ a son of God, yes indeed, we read that he was a created entity, the only begotten son of God,
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Jesus as a man is flesh. That is certainly a creation of God. Man was created by God. But this Jesus Christ is the Word who WAS God (John 1:1) So this means the Word who "was God" became flesh (John 1:14).

God Himself was incarnated. You are rejecting the Bible's revelation for God becomming incarnated, and clothed in His own creation. And in its place you have an angel Michael, who was not the Word,... was God became flesh.

You have a created angel becoming a man. You do not have the eternal God becomming a man. And in that regard you do not have a child born who is Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)

The Mighty God is Jehovah = "The Mighty One, God Jehovah, speaks and summons the earth ..." (Psalm 50:1) ... "O great and Mighty God, whose name is Jehovah of hosts ..." (Jeremiah 32:18)

Jehovah was born as a human child.

The Mighty God, Jehovah clothed Himself in the humanity of flesh. So He is Creator mingled man a creature. This is incarnation. You don't have Jehovah God as a born child. You do not teach the "Son ... given" as the incarnation of "Eternal Father".

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes it is a rather strong assertion I agree, never the less, if you want to report me then go ahead, perhaps i will face the Inquisition, have my tongue torn out and be burned at the stake like Michael Servetus at the hands of that murderer Calvin.

Very well. It is done.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Very well. It is done.

strange i have received no warnings, no forum bans. Simply pointing out the obvious, that you are promulgating paganism in the guise of Christianity in direct opposition to the words of the Christ, making the teaching anti Christ. I dont think your protestations will wash with the moderators, for its a self evident and valid point.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]====================================
First of all we have a biblical basis for asserting that Christ is the arch angel. Its not like we made it up, if you do not accept it, then so what? Firstly the scriptures term the angels as 'sons of God', are you aware of this?
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Yes. I know that "sons of God Son ... given" as the incarnation of "Eternal Father".[/b]

haha, pulling the old john 1:1, tell me Jay, why the very same chapter states, at verse 18, that no one has seen God at any time, making your assertion, that the Word is God Almighty, a falsehood! for plenty of people saw Jesus Christ.

No i am not rejecting the Bible in any manner or form, i simply refuse to submit to a pagan doctrine. Christ was a created being, the only begotten son, meaning that he was the only entity directly created by God himself, all other things have been created for him and through him. This is very clear. Proverbs Chapter eight is with clear reference to the Christ, who spent aeons of time beside his father as a master worker. Why this should be so hard for you to accept i do not know, although i suspect it has to do with upholding certain pre Christian and pagan doctrines which at some point formed a kind of hybrid belief and has led you to adopt some thoroughly dubious doctrines.

I do not deny that you love the Christ, i simply think that you are making him an object of idolatry, for clearly he himself did all things, for the Glory of the Father and taught others to do the same.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
haha, pulling the old john 1:1, tell me Jay, why the very same chapter states, at verse 18, that no one has seen God at any time, making your assertion, that the Word is God Almighty, a falsehood! for plenty of people saw Jesus Christ.

No i am not rejecting the Bible in any manner or form, i simply refuse to submit to a pagan doctrine. Christ was ...[text shortened]... clearly he himself did all things, for the Glory of the Father and taught others to do the same.

You bring up points that we have argued about before.
What I don't see you do is explain why you do not teach that Michael the angel is within you.

This you ignore and haul out old arguments previously addressed.

Paul told the Corinthains "Test yourselves whether you are in the faith, prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved." (2 Cor. 13:5)

Go to the kingdom hall and ask them why they do not teach that Michael an angel is in the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Originally posted by jaywill
You bring up points that we have argued about before.
What I don't see you do is explain why you do not teach that Michael the angel is within you.

This you ignore and haul out old arguments previously addressed.

Paul told the Corinthains "Test yourselves whether you are in the faith, prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that hall and ask them why they do not teach that Michael an angel is in the Jehovah's Witnesses.

i know why, because hes in heaven, where else would he be? Now Jay this is a matter of controversy between you and I, I have another thread, entitled the Kingdom of God, which , is the central teaching of Christianity, i had hoped that you may offer up some of your thoughts on what that kingdom means to you, for i have no desire to argue this point any further with you. You believe that Christ is God incarnate, that is fine, i dont, that is also fine, to me.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i know why, because hes in heaven, where else would he be? Now Jay this is a matter of controversy between you and I, I have another thread, entitled the Kingdom of God, which , is the central teaching of Christianity, i had hoped that you may offer up some of your thoughts on what that kingdom means to you, for i have no desire to argue this point a ...[text shortened]... you. You believe that Christ is God incarnate, that is fine, i dont, that is also fine, to me.

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i know why, because hes in heaven, where else would he be?
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Watchtower holds that Jesus Christ is the archangel Michael.

Now since the resurrection where does the New Testament locate Jesus Christ ? In two places in Romans 8:10,34)

1.) Christ in the believers in Christ - "But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness." (Rom. 8:10)

2.) Christ at the right hand of God in heaven - "It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Rom. 8:34)

If Watchtower teaches its pupils that Christ is Michael the angel, where do they write that Michael the angel is IN the Jehovahs' Witnesses ?