Freedom FROM religion foundation!

Originally posted by sonship
Diversion for the morning. Oxford Math Professor John Lennox comments on Richard Dawkins and Atheism:

John Lennox on A Game Plan for Life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37aM75LaEDk

So he jumps on the idea that yes, Virginia, there was a beginning and that is the entry into theism being the correct way to view the universe.

The funny part is, this beginning of the universe thing seems now to be just the beginning of our LOCAL universe, the one we see, 14 odd billion years old. It seems now that space time that started with our BB is only a local clock and there is a bigger universe we came from that actually had no beginning as we can see yet. That blows out this dudes big argument.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So he jumps on the idea that yes, Virginia, there was a beginning and that is the entry into theism being the correct way to view the universe.

The funny part is, this beginning of the universe thing seems now to be just the beginning of our LOCAL universe, the one we see, 14 odd billion years old. It seems now that space time that started with our BB i ...[text shortened]... e from that actually had no beginning as we can see yet. That blows out this dudes big argument.

The funny part is, this beginning of the universe thing seems now to be just the beginning of our LOCAL universe, the one we see, 14 odd billion years old.

Sounds like you are so eager embrace a "multiverse" theory that you speak as if it is proven fact complete with evidence. It isn't. There is no evidence that there is a local universe and untold other universes. That's pop sci-fi at this point.

There is no evidence that there are untold numbers of non local "other" universes.

It seems now that space time that started with our BB is only a local clock and there is a bigger universe we came from that actually had no beginning as we can see yet. That blows out this dudes big argument.

1.) The space time theorems predict the universe had to have had a beginning.

2.) Even if there is a assemble of universes (a multiverse) for which there is no evidence, what reason is there to assume it had no beginning ?

You know Adam ran and hid from God among the trees of the garden.
Some modern men are still trying to run and hide from a Creator among the beginningless multivers.

What will you do when you realize that hiding in one of the trillions of universes in the multiverse seems to offer no comfort either ? Will you then propose multi - multi - multiverses ?

Step forwards into the Creator's love and forgiveness. Don't run and hide among the imagined beginningless universes.

Originally posted by sonship

The funny part is, this beginning of the universe thing seems now to be just the beginning of our LOCAL universe, the one we see, 14 odd billion years old.

Sounds like you are so eager embrace a "multiverse" theory that you speak as if it is proven fact complete with evidence. It isn't. There is no evidence that there is a local universe ...[text shortened]... e Creator's love and forgiveness. Don't run and hide among the imagined beginningless universes.

I guess theists cannot accept the idea there may be multiple universes since that would go directly against the 'in the beginning' part of the bible. The thing is, there IS evidence of other universes, in the CMR, cosmic background radiation:

http://news.discovery.com/space/a-fingerprint-embedded-in-cosmic-background-radiation.htm

The circular patterns are real and one explanation is contact with another universe.

If you have another explanation, I would be glad to read it. Hopefully not just a pile of scripture but your own mind working on the problem, unlike RJ who has no mind to give his own analysis, he can only spout what others have told him.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I guess theists cannot accept the idea there may be multiple universes since that would go directly against the 'in the beginning' part of the bible. The thing is, there IS evidence of other universes, in the CMR, cosmic background radiation:

http://news.discovery.com/space/a-fingerprint-embedded-in-cosmic-background-radiation.htm

The circular patter ...[text shortened]... unlike RJ who has no mind to give his own analysis, he can only spout what others have told him.

that's not evidence of other universes. there is simply something that might be explained by a multiverse

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
that's not evidence of other universes. there is simply something that might be explained by a multiverse

It is evidence.
It is not evidence against (ie does not disprove)
Therefore it is evidence for.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I guess theists cannot accept the idea there may be multiple universes since that would go directly against the 'in the beginning' part of the bible. The thing is, there IS evidence of other universes, in the CMR, cosmic background radiation:

http://news.discovery.com/space/a-fingerprint-embedded-in-cosmic-background-radiation.htm

The circular patter ...[text shortened]... unlike RJ who has no mind to give his own analysis, he can only spout what others have told him.

"The circular patterns are real and one explanation is contact with another universe. "

Or something else, right? Seriously, you want to claim something that could
mean a untold number of other things as your evidence? I guess if we can
say that we can say God did too, after all it is one explanation.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
"The circular patterns are real and one explanation is contact with another universe. "

Or something else, right? Seriously, you want to claim something that could
mean a untold number of other things as your evidence? I guess if we can
say that we can say God did too, after all it is one explanation.
Kelly

Hey, at this point in the debate, your god could have slammed its fist into the budding universe and created those circles, they are real for sure and it is just one line of evidence there was something before the BB.

Right now the subject is pretty open, just pointing out there IS some evidence of skullduggery going on during the birth of the universe.

Circular patterns in the CMR don't just get there by accident. There has to be a cause.

We are just saying one possibility is another budding universe bumping into ours when ours was very small.

The circular pattern looks a lot like when two soap bubbles combine, there is a circle on each bubble where they contact.

Of course the universe is not a big soap bubble and it might be some artifact of a higher dimensional bump but you are free at this point to come up with any hypothesis you want, they all would be equal at this point in time.

The way black holes squeeze down to practically nothing is a good sign space can be squeezed out of existence and that might be creating a new universe inside the black hole.

News in the year 2100🙂

Originally posted by sonhouse
Hey, at this point in the debate, your god could have slammed its fist into the budding universe and created those circles, they are real for sure and it is just one line of evidence there was something before the BB.

Right now the subject is pretty open, just pointing out there IS some evidence of skullduggery going on during the birth of the universe. ...[text shortened]... nce and that might be creating a new universe inside the black hole.

News in the year 2100🙂

I got that it was one possibility, and there could be others, which to say that
it really isn't a clear piece of evidence for anyone.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I got that it was one possibility, and there could be others, which to say that
it really isn't a clear piece of evidence for anyone.
Kelly

Feel free to speculate. That is what science is all about. It does seem clear about one thing: For whatever reason, theists don't want to even think about the idea of multiple universes, it supposedly goes against the creation story although I have no idea why.

What difference does it make if you think your god puffed this universe into place when in fact there may be an infinite number of them? Would that somehow diminish your god? It just seems to me your god would be that much more powerful if it had created ALL the universes, of course assuming there ARE other universes.

What is the big deal about the idea of there being more than one universe anyway?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Feel free to speculate. That is what science is all about. It does seem clear about one thing: For whatever reason, theists don't want to even think about the idea of multiple universes, it supposedly goes against the creation story although I have no idea why.

What difference does it make if you think your god puffed this universe into place when in fa ...[text shortened]... universes.

What is the big deal about the idea of there being more than one universe anyway?

Well, I'm not sure what you want to call multiple universe, why wouldn't
they all just be part of one? It isn't like there are not layers or shades of
other things floating around. I don't see why it would matter if there are
several, it isn't like it would change anything as near as I can tell, I also
don't see why you feel the need to find more if they are there or not.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Well, I'm not sure what you want to call multiple universe, why wouldn't
they all just be part of one? It isn't like there are not layers or shades of
other things floating around. I don't see why it would matter if there are
several, it isn't like it would change anything as near as I can tell, I also
don't see why you feel the need to find more if they are there or not.
Kelly

Well it sounds like you can at least THINK about the idea that there is more than one universe.

It just solves some nagging problems with entropy if there are a bunch of universes floating around out there. Remember, when we say 'floating', we are not talking about a ping pong ball literally floating on water, they would be floating in some kind of higher dimensional space, maybe 5th dimensional space with 4th dimensional universes banging into one another occasionally, which is just one way to look at it, probably not close to reality but just a visualizing aide.

But why do theists reject the very concept of multiple universes?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Well, I'm not sure what you want to call multiple universe, why wouldn't
they all just be part of one? It isn't like there are not layers or shades of
other things floating around. I don't see why it would matter if there are
several, it isn't like it would change anything as near as I can tell, I also
don't see why you feel the need to find more if they are there or not.
Kelly

The evilutionists now need multiple universes to dismiss the idea that our earth, sun, and moon have been positioned just right for life on earth. And everything is so fine-tuned that if it is just a little off, man could not live on the earth. That is also why they are worried about just a 2 degree increase in global temperature. They don't believe God is in control.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
The evilutionists now need multiple universes to dismiss the idea that our earth, sun, and moon have been positioned just right for life on earth. And everything is so fine-tuned that if it is just a little off, man could not live on the earth. That is also why they are worried about just a 2 degree increase in global temperature. They don't believe God is in control.

The Instructor

Be aware that Kelly has a higher functioning brain than you and can actually think for himself and so does not need your theistic pressure to 'bring him around' if that is what you are thinking.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The evilutionists now need multiple universes to dismiss the idea that our earth, sun, and moon have been positioned just right for life on earth. And everything is so fine-tuned that if it is just a little off, man could not live on the earth. That is also why they are worried about just a 2 degree increase in global temperature. They don't believe God is in control.

The Instructor

If we are the only life in the universe, out of billions of potential solar systems, don't you think that it would have to just right? And don't you think we can only see from our perspective?

You can't use that as proof of God because if probability, in the universe, is against life to such a magnitude then it would be 100% that we would only be able to exist on the only planet capable of sustaining life.

sonhouse,

I guess theists cannot accept the idea there may be multiple universes since that would go directly against the 'in the beginning' part of the bible.

As of yet there is no scientific evidence for multiple universes. If you have EVIDENCE put your link up. I don't mean the hand wavings of imaginative quantum physicists with fertile imaginations. I mean some evidence that a whole bunch of universes exist.

And the "beginning" which is not yet refuted is not so much the "In the beginning" of Genesis. It is the "beginning" which is predicted had to have occurred by the unsacred, unreligious physicists who have been working on the problem for years.

That at the moment it agrees with Genesis stating a beginning is coincidental.

The thing is, there IS evidence of other universes, in the CMR, cosmic background radiation:

http://news.discovery.com/space/a-fingerprint-embedded-in-cosmic-background-radiation.htm

I'll have to look at it. But the backround radiation has up to now been called evidence of a Big Bang for the one universe we know. I expecting to watch your video and be convinced that it has been conclusively demonstrated that this backround radiation is left over from some OTHER universe's Big Bang ?

The circular patterns are real and one explanation is contact with another universe.

There are plenty of videos theorizing parallel universes. There are plenty of interesting NOVA episodes espousing possible things, including multiple universes. I find them interesting and have seen quite a few.

Interesting speculation is one thing and scientific evidence is another.
If your link just turns out to be interesting speculative imaginings of multiple universes, that doesn't count as evidence.

If you have another explanation, I would be glad to read it. Hopefully not just a pile of scripture but your own mind working on the problem, unlike RJ who has no mind to give his own analysis, he can only spout what others have told him.

This is the Spirituality Forum. If you don't like baseball, don't hang around Yankee Stadium. And if you don't like references to scriptures of revelatory books, then don't hang around the Spirituality Forum.

I better get some arguable scientific evidence from your link if I go spend the time there.